Discussion:
In And Out Of Wicca - A Former Wiccan Speaks
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The List Man
2006-05-07 23:45:53 UTC
Permalink
For a detailed rebuttal of Wicca's association with satan,
please visit http://www.esotericwonders.com/wicca/wiccadevil.html

- How we disproved the false claims of devil worship.
- Rebuttal of the claim that Gardner stole everything from Leland.
- Rebuttal of the claim that Diana was the sister of the Devil.
- Learn how Charles G. Leland actually dismisses Satan
in his book, Etruscan Roman Remains.
- And much more.

--
The List Man
http://www.esotericwonders.com
n***@lightspeed.ca
2006-05-08 00:18:59 UTC
Permalink
AN OPEN LETTER TO THE WITCHCRAFT AND MAGICAL COMMUNITY
AN OPEN LETTER TO THE
WITCHCRAFT AND MAGICAL COMMUNITY

"An ye harm none ... do what ye will." This Wiccan Rede, a
salient creed
among the witchcraft and magickal community, has been expressed in the
hearts
of many druids, magickal people, neo-pagans, pagans, wiccans and
witches. It
has also been expressed by the followers of the Goddess: Artemis,
Bast,
Brigit, Diana, Hecate, Isis, Lilith, Rhiannon and the Male God: Odin,
Ammon-
Ra, Baphomet, Cernunnos, Pan, Osiris, Apollo and Lucifer.

Witchcraft (Wicca) has been identified as "the Craft of the Wise,
as a
fissiparous Earth religion characterized by an animistic and
polytheistic
worship of nature often with an androgynous pantheism. It is a
theology
lacking in a theodicy, a prophetic faith without prophets, and a
religion
lacking in bureaucratic rationality; possessing instead magical rituals
to re-
enchant the social world."[1]

When the average person thinks of non-legerdemain magic(k), a
mysterious
metaphysical dimension normally parallels that person's thoughts.
Marcello
Truzzi, Professor of Sociology at Eastern Michigan State and an
authority on
witchcraft, examined the ontological character of magick. "For some
witchcraft
practitioners, especially the more orthodox ones, magic is viewed
as a
supernatural phenomenon. The character of magic is such that it
involves
special spiritual agencies (e.g. elementals, demons, etc.) which are
outside
the natural physical order available for study by empirical science.
Thus,
for some witches, magical laws are not natural laws and they
can even
contradict natural laws. Supernatural agencies and mechanisms are
invoked and
these are beyond scientific explanation. Most newer witchcraft
groups,
however, avoid supernaturalism and perfer instead to speak of
supernormal or
paranormal events."[2]

Some witches knowingly even catagorize supernatural powers, which
they call
upon (invocation or "drawing down the moon") as just a mere extension
of the
latent powers of the soul in man.

Gerald Gardner's (1884-1964) name is still echoed in the
witchcraft
spiritual Hall of Fame. Gardner, a pioneer in modern and eclectic
witchcraft,
was an avid follower of the Great Mother Goddess and the Horned God.
He was
influenced by Annie Besant's daughter and Aleister Crowley, the
well-known
ceremonial magician. According to Doreen Valiente, who knew
Gardner
personally, "Gerald Gardner got to know Aleister Crowley when the
latter was
living at Hastings, a year before Crowley died. He was taken to see
Crowley
by a friend, and visited him on a number of occasions thereafter,
until
Crowley's death in 1947. Crowley took a liking to G.B.G. [Gardner],
as a
fellow-student of magic, and made him an honorary member of Crowley's
magical
order, the Ordo Templi Orientis. G.B.G. admired Crowley as a poet,
and was
fond of using quotations from Crowley's works in his rites."[3]
Gardner died
at sea from heart failure in 1964.

Professor Truzzi says, "Yet there is much evidence suggesting that
Gardner
concocted most of his rituals and legends from his own fertile
imagination and
that he promoted witchcraft for economic and sexual reasons ... Since
so many
witches are the result of the diffusion of Gardner's exportations, any
coven
whose origins cannot be traced prior to 1950 should be highly
suspect in
regard to its claims of earlier, traditional roots."[4]

One of the more modern and prominent witchcraft groups in America
today is
the "Church of Circle Wicca." According to Margot Adler, a witch and
author
of "Drawing Down the Moon," who is also the granddaughter of the
renowned
psychiatrist Alfred Adler, Circle Wicca "is now that group with their
finger
on the pulse of The Craft scene."[5] The Church of Circle
Wicca,
(incorporated with the State of Wisconsin, #C-15878) has a 200-acre
"nature
sanctuary" near Mt. Horeb, Wisconsin. Selena Fox, a psychotherapist,
and Jim
Alan, who are on the Board of Directors, have been directing the
witchcraft
community with its monotheistic, polytheistic and animistic
viewpoint
sprinkled with Theosophy, C.G. Jung psychology and Jane Roberts'
Seth
Material.

"Circle Wicca is one form of the many expressions of Wicca, whose
roots go
back to the shamanism and Pagan religions of pre-Christian
Europe."[6] A
common denominator between Shamanism and Pagan religions is the trance
state.

The most influential witchcraft publication within the
present day
witchcraft and magickal community in America is the Circle Network News
(CNN)
of Circle Wicca. In the Fall 83 issue, trance working is
discussed in
connection with communicating with the departed. "This type of
tranceworking
should only be practiced after long and intensive training
between a
priest/ess and student. It is not a state to enter into lightly or
when alone
... for the spirit to be contacted actually enters the Wytch's body,
using it
to deliver a verbal message."[7]

Experientially related to the above is Mirror Magic, another
popular form
of tranceworking. In an article by Selena Fox, she says, "You may wish
to get
glimpses of and guidance from one or more of your past life selves
and/or your
Spirit guides and teachers ... If you have been extensively trained
and are
experienced in mediumship, you may use this tranceworking to
contact the
Spirits of departed friends and relatives. If you have not had such
training
and experience, do not attempt this without a knowledgeable teacher
present to
guide you."[8]

Idolatry and Polytheism are an integrated part of witchcraft.
Idolatry
(Greek: Eidololatreia) comes in many forms; e.g.: Necrolatry (worship
of the
dead), Dentrology (worship of trees), Litholotry (worship of
stones),
Pyrolatry (worship of fire), Zoolatry (worship of animals) and
Selfolatry.

Polytheism opens up Pandora's box of new theologies, new
philosophies, new
cosmic theories, new gods, and new idols. Professor Leslie Carlson
succinctly
shows what polytheism leads to. "Originally, religion was
monotheistic, but
became debased through idolatrous worship, and the true God and his
attributes
came to be represented by idols, cult objects, and fetishes. Because
God was
unseen and transcendent, men set up idols as a materialistic
expression of
him. Soon the created thing was worshipped as a god instead of the
Creator.
Thus, each nation had its chief god and as many more as they
felt were
necessary. Not only were idols used, but also various forms of nature
as the
heavenly bodies, mountains, seas, rivers, insects, birds and
animals."[9]
Egyptian witchcraft and Shamanism reflect the above which is also a
part of
the Church of Circle Wicca's philosophical systems.

Is there a myriad of gods and goddesses from the Old World now
entering the
West in order to cosmically fill-in the heart-felt void found in the
Wiccan
and magickal community? A spiritual collection of such entities is
reflected
in Circle Wicca's publication, Circle Network News, in their
"Invocation and
Incantation" section. Examples of these so-called deities are Pan,
Siva and
Hecate[10]; Marduk, Poseidon, Hestia, Ceres, Athene, Cerridwen,
Aradia,
Hephaestus, Diana and Selene[11]; Isis, Ashtoreth and Astarte[12];
Danu,
Arianrhod, Anubis and Cernunnos[13]; Adonis, Apollo, Dionysus, Hades,
Venus
and Pegasus[14]; and Nuit, Osirus and Eros[15].

The herstory book of the Goddess rests on a distant island with the
pages
being blown by a strong conjectural wind, within an optative
environment.
According to Merlin Stone, "The Upper Paleolithic period, though most
of its
sites have been found in Europe, is the conjectural [inference from
defective
or presumptive evidence, a conclusion deduced by surmise or
guesswork]
foundation of the religion of the Goddess as it emerged in the later
Neolithic
Age of the Near East. Since it precedes the time of written records
and does
not directly lead into an historical period that might have helped to
explain
it, the information on the Paleolithic existence of Goddess worship
must at
this time remain speculative."[16]

In other words, the foundational time period of the Goddess
religion
supposedly dates back to the Stone Age. The information obtained
from that
time period, which is carried over to the present day, has a very
conjectural
thought base which precedes written records. These conjectures spawn a
myriad
of ipse didixits (assertions made but not proved).

Among the Wiccan Feminist community, the Goddess Lilith stands
out. Is
there something historical, not commonly known, about Her that can be
found in
old books under some Wiccan ritual tables? The late Gustav
Davidson,
bibliographer at the Library of Congress and past Secretary Emeritus
of the
Poetry Society of America, says "Lilith is a female demon, enemy of
infants,
bride of the evil angel Sammael (Satan)." He also states, "Lilith is
in fact
drawn from the lili, female demonic spirits in Mesopotamian
demonology, and
known as ardat lili."[17]

Who is the Goddess' consort? The Horned God, Pan. According to
Robert
Graves, former Professor of English literature at Cairo University,
Pan's
etymology "is usually derived from paein, 'to pasture', stands for the
'devil'
or 'upright man', of the Arcadian fertility cult, which closely
resembled the
witch cult of North-western Europe."[18] Pan falls under the
catagory of
nature-demon in Larousse's World Mythology.

At Aleister Crowley's funeral, the "Hymn to Pan" was recited.
Pan had a
way of placing a magickal spell over Crowley's life. Crowley, who
claimed to
be the Devil's chief emissary on earth, attempted to "Raise Pan"
during a
ceremonial magick ritual. "Crowley had raised Pan all night.
MacAleister
[son of Aleister] was dead and Crowley, stripped of his magician's
robes, a
naked gibbering idiot crouching in the corner. Before he [Crowley] was
fit to
go about again, he spent four months in a lunatic asylum."[19] The
author of
this quote knew Aleister Crowley personally.

Baal, consort of the Goddess Ashtoreth and a male God who the
ancient
Druids worshipped, has been inked in the National Geographic magazine
pages
(August 1974, pages 166-167). "On a moonlit night, ancient writers
say, a
priest placed a child, mercifully killed moments earlier, on the
outstretched
amrs of a statue of Baal."

Magick is an important "magical" ingredient within witchcraft.
Starhawk
defines magick as "the art of sensing and shaping the subtle, unseen
forces of
the world, of awakening deeper levels of consciousness beyond the
rational, is
an element common to all traditions of Witchcraft. Craft rituals are
magical
rites: They stimulate an awareness of the hidden side of reality, and
awaken
long-forgotten powers of the human mind."[20]

What are these "long-forgotten powers of the human mind"? Is it
possible
that there is another power playing upon the Wiccan and magicians'
mind which
is not an extension of the human mind? Is it possible that these
"unseen
forces that flow through the world" are seeking to control the
world and
everyone therein?

A medical, historical, anthropological symposium[21] was held in
1975 at a
large major university discussing the area of the "spirit world" and
what lies
within. Doctors, psychiatrists, scientists, historians,
theologians, and
college professors took into serious consideration how cultures from
all over
the world have been and are affected and infected by these normally
"unseen
forces" in the world.

The reality of these unseen forces is succinctly summarized in two
books.
The first one is "Everyday Witchcraft". "Various malign influences are
always
loose in the atmosphere. No matter what you do - or don't do - one
day these
forces may decide to focus on you or your family. However, when you
start
practicing witchcraft, the chances of drawing the attention of these
mischief-
makers increases greatly."[22]

The second book is the Bible. In Ephesians chapter 6, it states,
"For our
struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,
against the
powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the
spiritual
forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." These spiritual forces
are the
force behind The Force (Star Wars).

Who are "Elementals"? Who are these "familiars"? Who are these
"spirit
guides"? Who are these "guardians and watchtowers"? Who are these
"spirits
of the dead"? And who are these "gods and goddesses"? What powers
do they
possess?

One common denominator that they all possess is thought
transference.
Through thought transference, the counterfeit spirit dimension is able
to pass
on auditory and non-auditory information. Telepathy is a form of
magic, (see
T.C. Lethbridge, "Witches", p. 14) and also a cosmic ingredient used
within
the magic circle. "At this point the guardian will also
telepathically tell
the young Wytch their name, 'I am _____.' This is the guardian's
secret name
that only the young Wytch will know and use."[23] Between the
guardian
(familiar spirit) and the Wytch there is a cognitive experience
demon-strated,
but does the Wytch truly "know" what the genesis is of this familar
spirit?
This alterered state which the witch goes through can be addicting with
a very
subtle long-term danger. See footnote #21.

Tom Sanguinet, a former ordained High Priest in the Celtic
tradition of
Wicca, took to heart the need for "peace with God." Tom was written up
in the
New York Times; appeared on "World of People" (syndicated TV
show); was
involved in the 1980 "Samain Seminar" in Texas[24]; personally knew
Selena
Fox, Lady Sintana of Ravenswood Church, Gavin Frost (Tom was Gavin's
partner),
Loy and Louise Stone and many others in the Wiccan and magickal
community.

Tom had many "familiar spirits". Looking back now, he came to
realize that
these familiar spirits were not of the true God, but that they were
deceiving
spirits from Satan. The Bible says that there are seducing
spirits and
teachings obtained from demons. Tom did believe in God, but didn't
want go
through with the "Lord of Darkness and the Goddess". He wanted to
have a
"personal" relationship with God. Religion has been identified as
man's
search for God and Christianity as God's search for a sincere person.
After
32 Wiccan years Tom left the "Old Religion" and invited Jesus Christ
into his
heart as his personal Lord and Savior.

"Deterioration is never sudden. No garden 'suddenly' overgrows with
thorns
... No person 'suddenly' becomes base. Slowly, almost imperceptibly,
certain
things are accepted that once were rejected. Things once considered
hurtful
are now secretly tolerated. At the outset it appears harmless,
perhaps even
exciting, but the wedge it brings leaves a gap that grows wider and
wider as
moral erosion joins hands with spiritual decay. The gap becomes a
canyon.
That 'way which seems right' becomes, in fact, 'the way of death'.
Solomon
wrote that. He ought to know."[25]

Rationalization is very subtle at times. Evil is first
abhored, then
ignored, then tolerated, then participated with in a very
compromising and
sometimes socially accepted means. What was once considered evil
is now
considered good and what was once considered good is now evil. Also
the mind
cannot accept what the heart rejects.

Every evil system carries its own seed of destruction. Time merely
matures
its process. The seed of destruction is invisible because Satan
has the
ability to blind the minds of the unbelieving.

Tom left (repentence) the world of idolatry, magick, monism,
polytheism,
reincarnation (a Sisyphean philosophy) and sky-cladding. He came to
realize
the forgiving and loving power of Jesus Christ, who is God above all
gods and
Lord above the "lord of darkness". "All have sinned and fall short
of the
glory of God". Tom is open to talking with anyone about the Lord
Jesus for
those interested.

Jesus Christ is the Great High Priest and loves you ver much. "For
God so
loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever
believes in
him should not perish, but have eternal life."[26] Whoever can
specifically
include Adler, Bonewits, Buckland, Budapest, Cabot, Fox, Frost,
Heidrick,
Forfreedom, Martello, Sintana, Slater, Starhawk, Stone, and Zell. The
whoever
also includes the solitary witch, feminist wiccan, magicians,
druids, neo-
pagans, god/dess worshippers, satanists, voodooists, etc. "And
there is
salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven
that has
been given among men, but which we must be saved."[27] That name is
Jesus.
When pondering about our Creator, "we ought not to think that the
Divine
Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and
thought
of man."[28]

Witchcraft leads to Self-Realization, self-deification and
self-
glorification. In Scripture it says that Man is appointed to die
once and
after this comes the judgement.[29] Reincarnation does not have
its name
carved on the pillars of Heaven, but on the deceptive pillars of Hell.
There
will be a physical resurrection (after Rites of Passage) that will
lead to
eternal separation from (opposite from Summerland) from the Almighty
God, the
Creator of Heaven and Earth. There will also be a physical
resurrection for
the believer in Jesus Christ, (who died for their sins and
rose,
physically[30]). That will be a glorious Day. Tom came to know
"the real
purpose in life".

"There are depths of love that I cannot know till I cross the
narrow sea.
There are heights of joy that I may not reach till I rest in
peace with
Thee"[31] -- Jesus will give you that peace, for He is the True and
Almighty
God of Peace. Reading the Gospel of John will give you an eternal
glimpse of
what He has done for you.

Tom Sanguinet, former wiccan, can be reached at
544 Edna St., Wills Point, TX 75169,
(212) 873-4340.

(for further reference material see _The Two Babylons_ by Alexander
Hislop,
New Jersey. Pub: Loizeaux Brothers, p.311).

FOOTNOTES

1. Kirkpatrick, R. George, Prof. _Abstract on Wicca_, California State
University-San Diego. 1983, p. 1.
2. Truzzi, Marcello, "Towards a Sociology of the Occult: Notes on
Modern
Witchcraft."
3. Valiente, Doreen. An ABC of Witchcraft Past and Present. New York:
St.
Martin's Press, 1973, p. 157.
4. Truzzi, ob-cit, pp. 636-637.
5. Personal letter from Margot Adler to Jack Roper. November 26, 1982.
6. The Circle Wicca Program, pub: Circle Wicca, Wisc., October, 1982.
7. "Communicating with the Departed: Four Paths." Circle Network News.
Fall
1983, p. 13.
8. Fox, Selena, "Mirror Magick." Circle Network News, Fall 1980, p. 4.
9. Carlson, E. Leslie, "Gods" as seen in Baker's Dictionary of
Theology. Ed:
E. Harrison, Baker Book House, 1975, p. 248.
10. Circle Network News (CNN), Summer '81, Vol. 3, No. 2, p. 3.
11. CNN, Fall '81, Vol. 3, No. 3, p. 3.
12. CNN, Fall '82, Vol. 4, No. 3, p. 2.
13. CNN, Winter '82-'83, Vol. 4, No. 4, p. 3.
14. CNN, Spring '83, Vol. 4, No. 1, p. 3.
15. CNN, Fall '83, Vol. 5, No. 3, p. 3.
16. Stone, Merlin. "The Great Goddess: Who Was She?" in _The Politics
of
Women's Spirituality_. Edit: Charlene Spretnak, New York, Anchor
Press/
Double Day, 1982, p. 8.
17. Davidson, Gustav. "A Dictionary of Angels." New York, The Free
Press,
1967, p. 174.
18. Graves, Robert. "The Greek Myths." Great Britain, Pelican Books,
1960,
Vol. 1, p. 102.
19. Wheatley, Dennis. "The Devil and All His Works." New York: American
Heritage Press, 1971, p. 276.
20. Starhawk. "Witchcraft as Goddess Religion," as seen in _The
Politics of
Women's Spirituality_. op-cit, p. 55.
21. "Demon Possession" Edit: John Warwick Montgomery. Minneapolis,
Bethany
Fellowship, 1976.
22. Lyons, Delphine C. "Everyday Witchcraft." New York, Dell Publishing
Co.,
p. 31.
23. Circle Network News, Fall 1983, p. 17.
24. Op-cit. CMM, Fall 1980, p. 6.
25. Swindoll, Charles. "Growing Strong In The Seasons of Life." Oregon,
Multnomah Press, p. 94.
26. Scripture: John 3:16
27. Acts 4:12
28. Acts 17:29
29. Hebrews 9:27
30. I Corinthians 15
31. "I Am Thine O Lord," Fanny Crosby. _Hymns for the Living Church_,
Carol
Stream, Ill., Hope Publishing Co., 1974, p. 354.

"In the Holy Scriptures wisdom, when used of God and good
men,
always carries a strong moral connotation. It is conceived as
being
pure, loving, and good. Wisdom that is mere shrewdness is
often
attributed to evil men, but such wisdom is treacherous and
false.
These two kinds of wisdom are in perpetual conflict. Indeed,
when
seen from the lofty peak of Sinai or Calvary, the whole history
of
the world is discovered to be but a contest between the wisdom
of
God and the cunning of Satan and fallen men. The outcome of
the
contest is not in doubt. The imperfect must fall before the
perfect
at last."
_The Knowledge of the
Holy_
A. W.
Tozer

For more information, please, contact:

C A R I S

Christian Apologetics: Research
and Information Service

Jack Roper * P.O. Box 1659 * Milwaukee, WI 53201
Jani
2006-05-08 00:39:20 UTC
Permalink
<***@lightspeed.ca> wrote in message
news:***@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


> "An ye harm none ... do what ye will." This Wiccan Rede, a
> salient creed
> among the witchcraft and magickal community,

No, it isn't.


has been expressed in the
> hearts
> of many druids, magickal people, neo-pagans, pagans, wiccans and
> witches. It
> has also been expressed by the followers of the Goddess: Artemis,
> Bast,
> Brigit, Diana, Hecate, Isis, Lilith, Rhiannon and the Male God: Odin,
> Ammon-
> Ra, Baphomet, Cernunnos, Pan, Osiris, Apollo and Lucifer.

No, it hasn't.

Now, go away.

Jani
blu
2006-05-07 17:37:40 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 07 May 2006 17:18:59 -0700, noahdove7 wrote:

<609 lines of cut and paste snipped>

> Christian Apologetics: Research
> and Information Service

What are ya'll apologising for? You believe as you do. Wiccans believe as
they do. Buddhists believe as they do. And so forth.

Can you say something _in_your_own_words_ that summarises your point?

And for the love of all things good, what on Earth do the Harry Potter
fans have to do with ANY of this?

Are you trying to start a discussion? An arguement? Are you trying to
convert us heathens? What is your point?

You can c&p the encyclopedia if you like, but you aren't _saying_ anything.

/baffled

--
love
blu*goddess.of.groundhogs*juju

The gods too are fond of a joke.
Aristotle

Let's change the way we eat, let's change the way we live
and let's change the way we treat each other. You see the old way wasn't working
so it's on us to do what we gotta do, to survive.
Tupac Shakur

Music in the soul can be heard by the universe.
Lao Tzu
Jani
2006-05-08 12:47:00 UTC
Permalink
"blu" <***@groundhogs.roXor> wrote in message
news:***@groundhogs.roXor...
> On Sun, 07 May 2006 17:18:59 -0700, noahdove7 wrote:
>
> <609 lines of cut and paste snipped>
>
>> Christian Apologetics: Research
>> and Information Service
>
> What are ya'll apologising for? You believe as you do. Wiccans believe as
> they do. Buddhists believe as they do. And so forth.
>
> Can you say something _in_your_own_words_ that summarises your point?
>
> And for the love of all things good, what on Earth do the Harry Potter
> fans have to do with ANY of this?

I feel really sorry for the HP people: they get added in every time some
fundy nutbar wants to have a go at pagans *waves sympathetically to afhp*

Jani
Fish Eye no Miko
2006-05-08 17:47:17 UTC
Permalink
Jani wrote:

> I feel really sorry for the HP people: they get added in
> every time some fundy nutbar wants to have a go at pagans *waves
> sympathetically to afhp*

<waves back>
Thanks, Jani. But I dunno, this guy's kinda entertaining... ^_^

Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"I'm the impish officer of death."
-Mike Nelson, _Mystery Science Theater 3000_.
blu
2006-05-08 13:54:44 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 08 May 2006 10:47:17 -0700, Fish Eye no Miko wrote:

> Jani wrote:
>
>> I feel really sorry for the HP people: they get added in
>> every time some fundy nutbar wants to have a go at pagans *waves
>> sympathetically to afhp*
>
> <waves back>
> Thanks, Jani. But I dunno, this guy's kinda entertaining... ^_^

Personally, I'd rather read "Emily Post's Etiquette" circa 1922 =all 627
pages of it.

But that's just me. ;)

--
love
blu*goddess.of.groundhogs*juju

The gods too are fond of a joke.
Aristotle

Let's change the way we eat, let's change the way we live
and let's change the way we treat each other. You see the old way wasn't working
so it's on us to do what we gotta do, to survive.
Tupac Shakur

Music in the soul can be heard by the universe.
Lao Tzu
blu
2006-05-08 13:52:10 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 08 May 2006 13:47:00 +0100, Jani wrote:

>
> "blu" <***@groundhogs.roXor> wrote in message
> news:***@groundhogs.roXor...
>> On Sun, 07 May 2006 17:18:59 -0700, noahdove7 wrote:
>>
>> <609 lines of cut and paste snipped>
>>
>>> Christian Apologetics: Research
>>> and Information Service
>>
>> What are ya'll apologising for? You believe as you do. Wiccans believe as
>> they do. Buddhists believe as they do. And so forth.
>>
>> Can you say something _in_your_own_words_ that summarises your point?
>>
>> And for the love of all things good, what on Earth do the Harry Potter
>> fans have to do with ANY of this?
>
> I feel really sorry for the HP people: they get added in every time some
> fundy nutbar wants to have a go at pagans *waves sympathetically to afhp*

Since there is an infinite supply of ignorance, I suppose confusing Harry
Potter with some religious sect shouldn't surprise me at this point in
life.

High Pope Dumbledore. Why not?

/waves to HP fans and wishes them well
--
love
blu*goddess.of.groundhogs*juju

The gods too are fond of a joke.
Aristotle

Let's change the way we eat, let's change the way we live
and let's change the way we treat each other. You see the old way wasn't working
so it's on us to do what we gotta do, to survive.
Tupac Shakur

Music in the soul can be heard by the universe.
Lao Tzu
Jani
2006-05-08 21:45:29 UTC
Permalink
"blu" <***@groundhogs.roXor> wrote in message
news:***@groundhogs.roXor...
> On Mon, 08 May 2006 13:47:00 +0100, Jani wrote:

>> I feel really sorry for the HP people: they get added in every time some
>> fundy nutbar wants to have a go at pagans *waves sympathetically to afhp*
>
> Since there is an infinite supply of ignorance, I suppose confusing Harry
> Potter with some religious sect shouldn't surprise me at this point in
> life.

You should read some of the tirades against HP on the fundie ngs :(
>
> High Pope Dumbledore. Why not?

I think being alive is a requirement for Popes. Sainthood should now be
possible, though.

Jani
blu
2006-05-08 14:49:39 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 08 May 2006 22:45:29 +0100, Jani wrote:

>
> "blu" <***@groundhogs.roXor> wrote in message
> news:***@groundhogs.roXor...
>> On Mon, 08 May 2006 13:47:00 +0100, Jani wrote:
>
>>> I feel really sorry for the HP people: they get added in every time some
>>> fundy nutbar wants to have a go at pagans *waves sympathetically to afhp*
>>
>> Since there is an infinite supply of ignorance, I suppose confusing Harry
>> Potter with some religious sect shouldn't surprise me at this point in
>> life.
>
> You should read some of the tirades against HP on the fundie ngs :(

No, I probably shouldn't. I'm trying for a more enlightened path and
reading that kinda b.s. would only set me back about 25 years.

>> High Pope Dumbledore. Why not?
>
> I think being alive is a requirement for Popes. Sainthood should now be
> possible, though.

He's dead? Well, then, Saint Dumbledore it is.

(keep telling myself some day I'm going to read all those books)

--
love
blu*goddess.of.groundhogs*juju

The gods too are fond of a joke.
Aristotle

Let's change the way we eat, let's change the way we live
and let's change the way we treat each other. You see the old way wasn't working
so it's on us to do what we gotta do, to survive.
Tupac Shakur

Music in the soul can be heard by the universe.
Lao Tzu
Dr Hal0nfire$
2006-05-12 23:18:26 UTC
Permalink
Is a Saint Buffy in order also?
John VanSickle
2006-05-09 02:04:21 UTC
Permalink
Jani wrote:

> I feel really sorry for the HP people: they get added in every time some
> fundy nutbar wants to have a go at pagans *waves sympathetically to afhp*

They also get dragged in every time someone wants to make Christians
look bad by passing off a caricature of Christians as the real thing.

Regards,
John
j***@bellsouth.net
2006-05-09 15:27:46 UTC
Permalink
"John VanSickle" <***@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:FMS7g.241$***@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Jani wrote:
>
>> I feel really sorry for the HP people: they get added in every time some
>> fundy nutbar wants to have a go at pagans *waves sympathetically to afhp*
>
> They also get dragged in every time someone wants to make Christians look
> bad by passing off a caricature of Christians as the real thing.
>
> Regards,
> John

Most of these "caricatures of Christians" are under the misapprehension that
they ARE Christians; and indeed, the best and most faithful of Christians.
Dirk Bruere
2006-05-09 16:00:51 UTC
Permalink
***@bellsouth.net wrote:
> "John VanSickle" <***@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:FMS7g.241$***@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> Jani wrote:
>>
>>> I feel really sorry for the HP people: they get added in every time some
>>> fundy nutbar wants to have a go at pagans *waves sympathetically to afhp*
>> They also get dragged in every time someone wants to make Christians look
>> bad by passing off a caricature of Christians as the real thing.
>>
>> Regards,
>> John
>
> Most of these "caricatures of Christians" are under the misapprehension that
> they ARE Christians; and indeed, the best and most faithful of Christians.

Irrespective, nobody is under any misapprehension that they are anything
other than wankers.

FFF
Dirk
Nechesh
2006-05-09 22:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Dirk Bruere wrote:
>
> Irrespective, nobody is under any misapprehension that they are anything
> other than wankers.
>

No no Dirk. Wanking is forbidden. It is a disgusting sinful activity.
Wankers will surely be struck blind by our just father in heaven.

Unlike abusing children, which is de rigeur for their priesthood...

In Light, Life and Love

Nechesh
Karnak17
2006-05-10 18:50:56 UTC
Permalink
Nechesh wrote:
> Dirk Bruere wrote:
> >
> > Irrespective, nobody is under any misapprehension that they are anything
> > other than wankers.
> >
>
> No no Dirk. Wanking is forbidden. It is a disgusting sinful activity.
> Wankers will surely be struck blind by our just father in heaven.
>
> Unlike abusing children, which is de rigeur for their priesthood...
>
> In Light, Life and Love

Was that _meant_ to be ironic?
Joe Curwen
2006-05-08 23:07:07 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@groundhogs.roXor>, blu says...
>
>On Sun, 07 May 2006 17:18:59 -0700, noahdove7 wrote:
>
><609 lines of cut and paste snipped>
>
>> Christian Apologetics: Research
>> and Information Service
>
>What are ya'll apologising for? You believe as you do. Wiccans believe as
>they do. Buddhists believe as they do. And so forth.
>
>Can you say something _in_your_own_words_ that summarises your point?
>
>And for the love of all things good, what on Earth do the Harry Potter
>fans have to do with ANY of this?
>


Check the FAQ. Subscribers to afh-p constitute the "144,000" spoken of in the
Book of Revelation.

--
Joe


--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
blu
2006-05-08 16:30:34 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 08 May 2006 16:07:07 -0700, Joe Curwen wrote:

> In article <***@groundhogs.roXor>, blu says...
>>
>>On Sun, 07 May 2006 17:18:59 -0700, noahdove7 wrote:
>>
>><609 lines of cut and paste snipped>
>>
>>> Christian Apologetics: Research
>>> and Information Service
>>
>>What are ya'll apologising for? You believe as you do. Wiccans believe as
>>they do. Buddhists believe as they do. And so forth.
>>
>>Can you say something _in_your_own_words_ that summarises your point?
>>
>>And for the love of all things good, what on Earth do the Harry Potter
>>fans have to do with ANY of this?
>>
>
>
> Check the FAQ. Subscribers to afh-p constitute the "144,000" spoken of in the
> Book of Revelation.

So, congratulations are in order?

--
love
blu*goddess.of.groundhogs*juju

The gods too are fond of a joke.
Aristotle

Let's change the way we eat, let's change the way we live
and let's change the way we treat each other. You see the old way wasn't working
so it's on us to do what we gotta do, to survive.
Tupac Shakur

Music in the soul can be heard by the universe.
Lao Tzu
Nicholas Thomas
2006-05-09 19:47:49 UTC
Permalink
blu wrote:
> On Mon, 08 May 2006 16:07:07 -0700, Joe Curwen wrote:
>
>> In article <***@groundhogs.roXor>, blu says...
>>> On Sun, 07 May 2006 17:18:59 -0700, noahdove7 wrote:
>>>
>>> <609 lines of cut and paste snipped>
>>>
>>>> Christian Apologetics: Research
>>>> and Information Service
>>> What are ya'll apologising for? You believe as you do. Wiccans believe as
>>> they do. Buddhists believe as they do. And so forth.
>>>
>>> Can you say something _in_your_own_words_ that summarises your point?
>>>
>>> And for the love of all things good, what on Earth do the Harry Potter
>>> fans have to do with ANY of this?
>>>
>>
>> Check the FAQ. Subscribers to afh-p constitute the "144,000" spoken of in the
>> Book of Revelation.
>
> So, congratulations are in order?
>

IMO, if it does happen (and I can't see it ;) ), there'll be *some*
seedy geezer selling tickets.

There always is...

xF,

...Nick
blu
2006-05-09 16:57:13 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 09 May 2006 20:47:49 +0100, Nicholas Thomas wrote:

> blu wrote:
>> On Mon, 08 May 2006 16:07:07 -0700, Joe Curwen wrote:
>>
>>> In article <***@groundhogs.roXor>, blu says...
>>>> On Sun, 07 May 2006 17:18:59 -0700, noahdove7 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <609 lines of cut and paste snipped>
>>>>
>>>>> Christian Apologetics: Research
>>>>> and Information Service
>>>> What are ya'll apologising for? You believe as you do. Wiccans believe as
>>>> they do. Buddhists believe as they do. And so forth.
>>>>
>>>> Can you say something _in_your_own_words_ that summarises your point?
>>>>
>>>> And for the love of all things good, what on Earth do the Harry Potter
>>>> fans have to do with ANY of this?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Check the FAQ. Subscribers to afh-p constitute the "144,000" spoken of in the
>>> Book of Revelation.
>>
>> So, congratulations are in order?
>>
>
> IMO, if it does happen (and I can't see it ;) ), there'll be *some*
> seedy geezer selling tickets.

At 5x the going rate, no doubt.

> There always is...

> xF,
>
> ...Nick

--
love
blu*goddess.of.groundhogs*juju

The gods too are fond of a joke.
Aristotle

Let's change the way we eat, let's change the way we live
and let's change the way we treat each other. You see the old way wasn't working
so it's on us to do what we gotta do, to survive.
Tupac Shakur

Music in the soul can be heard by the universe.
Lao Tzu
Nevermore
2006-05-09 00:19:35 UTC
Permalink
In <***@drn.newsguy.com> Joe Curwen wrote:

>>And for the love of all things good, what on Earth do the Harry Potter
>>fans have to do with ANY of this?
>
> Check the FAQ. Subscribers to afh-p constitute the "144,000" spoken of
> in the Book of Revelation.
>
Considering unicorns and dragons are straight out of the Bible this is
all starting to make sense.

Nevermore (And people thought black cats were weird)
Traveller
2006-05-08 01:49:53 UTC
Permalink
What exactly does this crap have to do with Harry Potter?

***@lightspeed.ca wrote:
> AN OPEN LETTER TO THE WITCHCRAFT AND MAGICAL COMMUNITY
> AN OPEN LETTER TO THE
> WITCHCRAFT AND MAGICAL COMMUNITY
>
> "An ye harm none ... do what ye will." This Wiccan Rede, a
> salient creed
> among the witchcraft and magickal community, has been expressed in the
> hearts
> of many druids, magickal people, neo-pagans, pagans, wiccans and
> witches. It
> has also been expressed by the followers of the Goddess: Artemis,
> Bast,
> Brigit, Diana, Hecate, Isis, Lilith, Rhiannon and the Male God: Odin,
> Ammon-
> Ra, Baphomet, Cernunnos, Pan, Osiris, Apollo and Lucifer.
>
> Witchcraft (Wicca) has been identified as "the Craft of the Wise,
> as a
> fissiparous Earth religion characterized by an animistic and
> polytheistic
> worship of nature often with an androgynous pantheism. It is a
> theology
> lacking in a theodicy, a prophetic faith without prophets, and a
> religion
> lacking in bureaucratic rationality; possessing instead magical rituals
> to re-
> enchant the social world."[1]
>
> When the average person thinks of non-legerdemain magic(k), a
> mysterious
> metaphysical dimension normally parallels that person's thoughts.
> Marcello
> Truzzi, Professor of Sociology at Eastern Michigan State and an
> authority on
> witchcraft, examined the ontological character of magick. "For some
> witchcraft
> practitioners, especially the more orthodox ones, magic is viewed
> as a
> supernatural phenomenon. The character of magic is such that it
> involves
> special spiritual agencies (e.g. elementals, demons, etc.) which are
> outside
> the natural physical order available for study by empirical science.
> Thus,
> for some witches, magical laws are not natural laws and they
> can even
> contradict natural laws. Supernatural agencies and mechanisms are
> invoked and
> these are beyond scientific explanation. Most newer witchcraft
> groups,
> however, avoid supernaturalism and perfer instead to speak of
> supernormal or
> paranormal events."[2]
>
> Some witches knowingly even catagorize supernatural powers, which
> they call
> upon (invocation or "drawing down the moon") as just a mere extension
> of the
> latent powers of the soul in man.
>
> Gerald Gardner's (1884-1964) name is still echoed in the
> witchcraft
> spiritual Hall of Fame. Gardner, a pioneer in modern and eclectic
> witchcraft,
> was an avid follower of the Great Mother Goddess and the Horned God.
> He was
> influenced by Annie Besant's daughter and Aleister Crowley, the
> well-known
> ceremonial magician. According to Doreen Valiente, who knew
> Gardner
> personally, "Gerald Gardner got to know Aleister Crowley when the
> latter was
> living at Hastings, a year before Crowley died. He was taken to see
> Crowley
> by a friend, and visited him on a number of occasions thereafter,
> until
> Crowley's death in 1947. Crowley took a liking to G.B.G. [Gardner],
> as a
> fellow-student of magic, and made him an honorary member of Crowley's
> magical
> order, the Ordo Templi Orientis. G.B.G. admired Crowley as a poet,
> and was
> fond of using quotations from Crowley's works in his rites."[3]
> Gardner died
> at sea from heart failure in 1964.
>
> Professor Truzzi says, "Yet there is much evidence suggesting that
> Gardner
> concocted most of his rituals and legends from his own fertile
> imagination and
> that he promoted witchcraft for economic and sexual reasons ... Since
> so many
> witches are the result of the diffusion of Gardner's exportations, any
> coven
> whose origins cannot be traced prior to 1950 should be highly
> suspect in
> regard to its claims of earlier, traditional roots."[4]
>
> One of the more modern and prominent witchcraft groups in America
> today is
> the "Church of Circle Wicca." According to Margot Adler, a witch and
> author
> of "Drawing Down the Moon," who is also the granddaughter of the
> renowned
> psychiatrist Alfred Adler, Circle Wicca "is now that group with their
> finger
> on the pulse of The Craft scene."[5] The Church of Circle
> Wicca,
> (incorporated with the State of Wisconsin, #C-15878) has a 200-acre
> "nature
> sanctuary" near Mt. Horeb, Wisconsin. Selena Fox, a psychotherapist,
> and Jim
> Alan, who are on the Board of Directors, have been directing the
> witchcraft
> community with its monotheistic, polytheistic and animistic
> viewpoint
> sprinkled with Theosophy, C.G. Jung psychology and Jane Roberts'
> Seth
> Material.
>
> "Circle Wicca is one form of the many expressions of Wicca, whose
> roots go
> back to the shamanism and Pagan religions of pre-Christian
> Europe."[6] A
> common denominator between Shamanism and Pagan religions is the trance
> state.
>
> The most influential witchcraft publication within the
> present day
> witchcraft and magickal community in America is the Circle Network News
> (CNN)
> of Circle Wicca. In the Fall 83 issue, trance working is
> discussed in
> connection with communicating with the departed. "This type of
> tranceworking
> should only be practiced after long and intensive training
> between a
> priest/ess and student. It is not a state to enter into lightly or
> when alone
> ... for the spirit to be contacted actually enters the Wytch's body,
> using it
> to deliver a verbal message."[7]
>
> Experientially related to the above is Mirror Magic, another
> popular form
> of tranceworking. In an article by Selena Fox, she says, "You may wish
> to get
> glimpses of and guidance from one or more of your past life selves
> and/or your
> Spirit guides and teachers ... If you have been extensively trained
> and are
> experienced in mediumship, you may use this tranceworking to
> contact the
> Spirits of departed friends and relatives. If you have not had such
> training
> and experience, do not attempt this without a knowledgeable teacher
> present to
> guide you."[8]
>
> Idolatry and Polytheism are an integrated part of witchcraft.
> Idolatry
> (Greek: Eidololatreia) comes in many forms; e.g.: Necrolatry (worship
> of the
> dead), Dentrology (worship of trees), Litholotry (worship of
> stones),
> Pyrolatry (worship of fire), Zoolatry (worship of animals) and
> Selfolatry.
>
> Polytheism opens up Pandora's box of new theologies, new
> philosophies, new
> cosmic theories, new gods, and new idols. Professor Leslie Carlson
> succinctly
> shows what polytheism leads to. "Originally, religion was
> monotheistic, but
> became debased through idolatrous worship, and the true God and his
> attributes
> came to be represented by idols, cult objects, and fetishes. Because
> God was
> unseen and transcendent, men set up idols as a materialistic
> expression of
> him. Soon the created thing was worshipped as a god instead of the
> Creator.
> Thus, each nation had its chief god and as many more as they
> felt were
> necessary. Not only were idols used, but also various forms of nature
> as the
> heavenly bodies, mountains, seas, rivers, insects, birds and
> animals."[9]
> Egyptian witchcraft and Shamanism reflect the above which is also a
> part of
> the Church of Circle Wicca's philosophical systems.
>
> Is there a myriad of gods and goddesses from the Old World now
> entering the
> West in order to cosmically fill-in the heart-felt void found in the
> Wiccan
> and magickal community? A spiritual collection of such entities is
> reflected
> in Circle Wicca's publication, Circle Network News, in their
> "Invocation and
> Incantation" section. Examples of these so-called deities are Pan,
> Siva and
> Hecate[10]; Marduk, Poseidon, Hestia, Ceres, Athene, Cerridwen,
> Aradia,
> Hephaestus, Diana and Selene[11]; Isis, Ashtoreth and Astarte[12];
> Danu,
> Arianrhod, Anubis and Cernunnos[13]; Adonis, Apollo, Dionysus, Hades,
> Venus
> and Pegasus[14]; and Nuit, Osirus and Eros[15].
>
> The herstory book of the Goddess rests on a distant island with the
> pages
> being blown by a strong conjectural wind, within an optative
> environment.
> According to Merlin Stone, "The Upper Paleolithic period, though most
> of its
> sites have been found in Europe, is the conjectural [inference from
> defective
> or presumptive evidence, a conclusion deduced by surmise or
> guesswork]
> foundation of the religion of the Goddess as it emerged in the later
> Neolithic
> Age of the Near East. Since it precedes the time of written records
> and does
> not directly lead into an historical period that might have helped to
> explain
> it, the information on the Paleolithic existence of Goddess worship
> must at
> this time remain speculative."[16]
>
> In other words, the foundational time period of the Goddess
> religion
> supposedly dates back to the Stone Age. The information obtained
> from that
> time period, which is carried over to the present day, has a very
> conjectural
> thought base which precedes written records. These conjectures spawn a
> myriad
> of ipse didixits (assertions made but not proved).
>
> Among the Wiccan Feminist community, the Goddess Lilith stands
> out. Is
> there something historical, not commonly known, about Her that can be
> found in
> old books under some Wiccan ritual tables? The late Gustav
> Davidson,
> bibliographer at the Library of Congress and past Secretary Emeritus
> of the
> Poetry Society of America, says "Lilith is a female demon, enemy of
> infants,
> bride of the evil angel Sammael (Satan)." He also states, "Lilith is
> in fact
> drawn from the lili, female demonic spirits in Mesopotamian
> demonology, and
> known as ardat lili."[17]
>
> Who is the Goddess' consort? The Horned God, Pan. According to
> Robert
> Graves, former Professor of English literature at Cairo University,
> Pan's
> etymology "is usually derived from paein, 'to pasture', stands for the
> 'devil'
> or 'upright man', of the Arcadian fertility cult, which closely
> resembled the
> witch cult of North-western Europe."[18] Pan falls under the
> catagory of
> nature-demon in Larousse's World Mythology.
>
> At Aleister Crowley's funeral, the "Hymn to Pan" was recited.
> Pan had a
> way of placing a magickal spell over Crowley's life. Crowley, who
> claimed to
> be the Devil's chief emissary on earth, attempted to "Raise Pan"
> during a
> ceremonial magick ritual. "Crowley had raised Pan all night.
> MacAleister
> [son of Aleister] was dead and Crowley, stripped of his magician's
> robes, a
> naked gibbering idiot crouching in the corner. Before he [Crowley] was
> fit to
> go about again, he spent four months in a lunatic asylum."[19] The
> author of
> this quote knew Aleister Crowley personally.
>
> Baal, consort of the Goddess Ashtoreth and a male God who the
> ancient
> Druids worshipped, has been inked in the National Geographic magazine
> pages
> (August 1974, pages 166-167). "On a moonlit night, ancient writers
> say, a
> priest placed a child, mercifully killed moments earlier, on the
> outstretched
> amrs of a statue of Baal."
>
> Magick is an important "magical" ingredient within witchcraft.
> Starhawk
> defines magick as "the art of sensing and shaping the subtle, unseen
> forces of
> the world, of awakening deeper levels of consciousness beyond the
> rational, is
> an element common to all traditions of Witchcraft. Craft rituals are
> magical
> rites: They stimulate an awareness of the hidden side of reality, and
> awaken
> long-forgotten powers of the human mind."[20]
>
> What are these "long-forgotten powers of the human mind"? Is it
> possible
> that there is another power playing upon the Wiccan and magicians'
> mind which
> is not an extension of the human mind? Is it possible that these
> "unseen
> forces that flow through the world" are seeking to control the
> world and
> everyone therein?
>
> A medical, historical, anthropological symposium[21] was held in
> 1975 at a
> large major university discussing the area of the "spirit world" and
> what lies
> within. Doctors, psychiatrists, scientists, historians,
> theologians, and
> college professors took into serious consideration how cultures from
> all over
> the world have been and are affected and infected by these normally
> "unseen
> forces" in the world.
>
> The reality of these unseen forces is succinctly summarized in two
> books.
> The first one is "Everyday Witchcraft". "Various malign influences are
> always
> loose in the atmosphere. No matter what you do - or don't do - one
> day these
> forces may decide to focus on you or your family. However, when you
> start
> practicing witchcraft, the chances of drawing the attention of these
> mischief-
> makers increases greatly."[22]
>
> The second book is the Bible. In Ephesians chapter 6, it states,
> "For our
> struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,
> against the
> powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the
> spiritual
> forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." These spiritual forces
> are the
> force behind The Force (Star Wars).
>
> Who are "Elementals"? Who are these "familiars"? Who are these
> "spirit
> guides"? Who are these "guardians and watchtowers"? Who are these
> "spirits
> of the dead"? And who are these "gods and goddesses"? What powers
> do they
> possess?
>
> One common denominator that they all possess is thought
> transference.
> Through thought transference, the counterfeit spirit dimension is able
> to pass
> on auditory and non-auditory information. Telepathy is a form of
> magic, (see
> T.C. Lethbridge, "Witches", p. 14) and also a cosmic ingredient used
> within
> the magic circle. "At this point the guardian will also
> telepathically tell
> the young Wytch their name, 'I am _____.' This is the guardian's
> secret name
> that only the young Wytch will know and use."[23] Between the
> guardian
> (familiar spirit) and the Wytch there is a cognitive experience
> demon-strated,
> but does the Wytch truly "know" what the genesis is of this familar
> spirit?
> This alterered state which the witch goes through can be addicting with
> a very
> subtle long-term danger. See footnote #21.
>
> Tom Sanguinet, a former ordained High Priest in the Celtic
> tradition of
> Wicca, took to heart the need for "peace with God." Tom was written up
> in the
> New York Times; appeared on "World of People" (syndicated TV
> show); was
> involved in the 1980 "Samain Seminar" in Texas[24]; personally knew
> Selena
> Fox, Lady Sintana of Ravenswood Church, Gavin Frost (Tom was Gavin's
> partner),
> Loy and Louise Stone and many others in the Wiccan and magickal
> community.
>
> Tom had many "familiar spirits". Looking back now, he came to
> realize that
> these familiar spirits were not of the true God, but that they were
> deceiving
> spirits from Satan. The Bible says that there are seducing
> spirits and
> teachings obtained from demons. Tom did believe in God, but didn't
> want go
> through with the "Lord of Darkness and the Goddess". He wanted to
> have a
> "personal" relationship with God. Religion has been identified as
> man's
> search for God and Christianity as God's search for a sincere person.
> After
> 32 Wiccan years Tom left the "Old Religion" and invited Jesus Christ
> into his
> heart as his personal Lord and Savior.
>
> "Deterioration is never sudden. No garden 'suddenly' overgrows with
> thorns
> ... No person 'suddenly' becomes base. Slowly, almost imperceptibly,
> certain
> things are accepted that once were rejected. Things once considered
> hurtful
> are now secretly tolerated. At the outset it appears harmless,
> perhaps even
> exciting, but the wedge it brings leaves a gap that grows wider and
> wider as
> moral erosion joins hands with spiritual decay. The gap becomes a
> canyon.
> That 'way which seems right' becomes, in fact, 'the way of death'.
> Solomon
> wrote that. He ought to know."[25]
>
> Rationalization is very subtle at times. Evil is first
> abhored, then
> ignored, then tolerated, then participated with in a very
> compromising and
> sometimes socially accepted means. What was once considered evil
> is now
> considered good and what was once considered good is now evil. Also
> the mind
> cannot accept what the heart rejects.
>
> Every evil system carries its own seed of destruction. Time merely
> matures
> its process. The seed of destruction is invisible because Satan
> has the
> ability to blind the minds of the unbelieving.
>
> Tom left (repentence) the world of idolatry, magick, monism,
> polytheism,
> reincarnation (a Sisyphean philosophy) and sky-cladding. He came to
> realize
> the forgiving and loving power of Jesus Christ, who is God above all
> gods and
> Lord above the "lord of darkness". "All have sinned and fall short
> of the
> glory of God". Tom is open to talking with anyone about the Lord
> Jesus for
> those interested.
>
> Jesus Christ is the Great High Priest and loves you ver much. "For
> God so
> loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever
> believes in
> him should not perish, but have eternal life."[26] Whoever can
> specifically
> include Adler, Bonewits, Buckland, Budapest, Cabot, Fox, Frost,
> Heidrick,
> Forfreedom, Martello, Sintana, Slater, Starhawk, Stone, and Zell. The
> whoever
> also includes the solitary witch, feminist wiccan, magicians,
> druids, neo-
> pagans, god/dess worshippers, satanists, voodooists, etc. "And
> there is
> salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven
> that has
> been given among men, but which we must be saved."[27] That name is
> Jesus.
> When pondering about our Creator, "we ought not to think that the
> Divine
> Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and
> thought
> of man."[28]
>
> Witchcraft leads to Self-Realization, self-deification and
> self-
> glorification. In Scripture it says that Man is appointed to die
> once and
> after this comes the judgement.[29] Reincarnation does not have
> its name
> carved on the pillars of Heaven, but on the deceptive pillars of Hell.
> There
> will be a physical resurrection (after Rites of Passage) that will
> lead to
> eternal separation from (opposite from Summerland) from the Almighty
> God, the
> Creator of Heaven and Earth. There will also be a physical
> resurrection for
> the believer in Jesus Christ, (who died for their sins and
> rose,
> physically[30]). That will be a glorious Day. Tom came to know
> "the real
> purpose in life".
>
> "There are depths of love that I cannot know till I cross the
> narrow sea.
> There are heights of joy that I may not reach till I rest in
> peace with
> Thee"[31] -- Jesus will give you that peace, for He is the True and
> Almighty
> God of Peace. Reading the Gospel of John will give you an eternal
> glimpse of
> what He has done for you.
>
> Tom Sanguinet, former wiccan, can be reached at
> 544 Edna St., Wills Point, TX 75169,
> (212) 873-4340.
>
> (for further reference material see _The Two Babylons_ by Alexander
> Hislop,
> New Jersey. Pub: Loizeaux Brothers, p.311).
>
> FOOTNOTES
>
> 1. Kirkpatrick, R. George, Prof. _Abstract on Wicca_, California State
> University-San Diego. 1983, p. 1.
> 2. Truzzi, Marcello, "Towards a Sociology of the Occult: Notes on
> Modern
> Witchcraft."
> 3. Valiente, Doreen. An ABC of Witchcraft Past and Present. New York:
> St.
> Martin's Press, 1973, p. 157.
> 4. Truzzi, ob-cit, pp. 636-637.
> 5. Personal letter from Margot Adler to Jack Roper. November 26, 1982.
> 6. The Circle Wicca Program, pub: Circle Wicca, Wisc., October, 1982.
> 7. "Communicating with the Departed: Four Paths." Circle Network News.
> Fall
> 1983, p. 13.
> 8. Fox, Selena, "Mirror Magick." Circle Network News, Fall 1980, p. 4.
> 9. Carlson, E. Leslie, "Gods" as seen in Baker's Dictionary of
> Theology. Ed:
> E. Harrison, Baker Book House, 1975, p. 248.
> 10. Circle Network News (CNN), Summer '81, Vol. 3, No. 2, p. 3.
> 11. CNN, Fall '81, Vol. 3, No. 3, p. 3.
> 12. CNN, Fall '82, Vol. 4, No. 3, p. 2.
> 13. CNN, Winter '82-'83, Vol. 4, No. 4, p. 3.
> 14. CNN, Spring '83, Vol. 4, No. 1, p. 3.
> 15. CNN, Fall '83, Vol. 5, No. 3, p. 3.
> 16. Stone, Merlin. "The Great Goddess: Who Was She?" in _The Politics
> of
> Women's Spirituality_. Edit: Charlene Spretnak, New York, Anchor
> Press/
> Double Day, 1982, p. 8.
> 17. Davidson, Gustav. "A Dictionary of Angels." New York, The Free
> Press,
> 1967, p. 174.
> 18. Graves, Robert. "The Greek Myths." Great Britain, Pelican Books,
> 1960,
> Vol. 1, p. 102.
> 19. Wheatley, Dennis. "The Devil and All His Works." New York: American
> Heritage Press, 1971, p. 276.
> 20. Starhawk. "Witchcraft as Goddess Religion," as seen in _The
> Politics of
> Women's Spirituality_. op-cit, p. 55.
> 21. "Demon Possession" Edit: John Warwick Montgomery. Minneapolis,
> Bethany
> Fellowship, 1976.
> 22. Lyons, Delphine C. "Everyday Witchcraft." New York, Dell Publishing
> Co.,
> p. 31.
> 23. Circle Network News, Fall 1983, p. 17.
> 24. Op-cit. CMM, Fall 1980, p. 6.
> 25. Swindoll, Charles. "Growing Strong In The Seasons of Life." Oregon,
> Multnomah Press, p. 94.
> 26. Scripture: John 3:16
> 27. Acts 4:12
> 28. Acts 17:29
> 29. Hebrews 9:27
> 30. I Corinthians 15
> 31. "I Am Thine O Lord," Fanny Crosby. _Hymns for the Living Church_,
> Carol
> Stream, Ill., Hope Publishing Co., 1974, p. 354.
>
> "In the Holy Scriptures wisdom, when used of God and good
> men,
> always carries a strong moral connotation. It is conceived as
> being
> pure, loving, and good. Wisdom that is mere shrewdness is
> often
> attributed to evil men, but such wisdom is treacherous and
> false.
> These two kinds of wisdom are in perpetual conflict. Indeed,
> when
> seen from the lofty peak of Sinai or Calvary, the whole history
> of
> the world is discovered to be but a contest between the wisdom
> of
> God and the cunning of Satan and fallen men. The outcome of
> the
> contest is not in doubt. The imperfect must fall before the
> perfect
> at last."
> _The Knowledge of the
> Holy_
> A. W.
> Tozer
>
> For more information, please, contact:
>
> C A R I S
>
> Christian Apologetics: Research
> and Information Service
>
> Jack Roper * P.O. Box 1659 * Milwaukee, WI 53201
>
Gary Woods
2006-05-08 02:26:38 UTC
Permalink
Traveller <"TheHandof BaneNOSPAM"@comcastDOTnet> wrote:

>What exactly does this crap have to do with Harry Potter?

Thanks _so_ much for putting your one-line reply on top of the whole thing.

Bright Blessings,


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G
Seamus
2006-05-08 03:24:32 UTC
Permalink
Shun the troll. It gives you better eyesight in the dark. Sort of like
keratin, but without the nutritional benefits.
n***@lightspeed.ca
2006-05-08 04:55:52 UTC
Permalink
http://exwitch.org/cms/mod.php?mod=userpage&menu=1600&page_id=24
Testimony of Kathi Sharpe
Why would a Witch become a Christian, anyway?
I had been a Witch for ten years, and a leader in AOL's pagan community
for 5 or 6 years. For about four years, I had been dedicated to the
gods of ancient Egypt.

Despite all the magic, healing rituals, reiki, and prayers that I and
others could do, I suffered from some serious health problems,
including 70% deafness in both ears. The doctors told me there was no
cure, and that it was likely to get worse. They told me to get a TTY
phone and other deafie-devices, and advised us to start learning sign
language.

Then one night, I had a dream about Jesus. No idea then "why"... I
chalked it up to bad pizza and told Him to go away. Two nights later, I
had another dream. He said, in sign language, "Come follow Me".

So I went into denial mode, bigtime. I couldn't blame pizza that night
. I certainly didn't want anything to do with following Him... I had
some pretty skewed assumptions about Christianity, and there was an
awful lot about Witchcraft that I didn't want to give up!

So, in utter arrogance, I asked God to prove it. Prove He wanted me,
Prove He's real. I work with an internet company. We'd purchased a
piece of software months before this happened, and I could not get one
of the features to work. I'd written to a user's group for assistance
about 3 months before, and no one had answers. I'd given up on the
thing. So I figured this would be a great test for God. I prayed on a
Monday afternoon, "If you're real, God, you need to come down here and
not only solve this problem, solve it in a way that I know it's you."

Tuesday right after lunchtime, I checked my email. In it was a letter
from someone on that user's group with the answer to my problem. Not
only was it the exact solution, the email address was from
@christianity.net.

You can't deny that kind of answer, now can you? :) This person was
also an AIM user, so I was able to talk to him via IM... fortunately
his boss was very understanding, because we talked for two whole days
He answered my questions, cleared up my incorrect assumptions, and told
me about the great love of Jesus. At the end of the two days, I gave my
heart to the Lord.

Now, the very next day, my family left for a planned camping vacation
at the beach. Given everything that had happened, we determined that
church on Sunday morning would be a Good Thing. ;) We ended up going to
a small Assemblies of God church, mainly because it was completely
different from what we'd experienced before in church (I was raised
congregationalist, my husband baptist). I don't know if you know
anything about deafness and hearing aids... they are useless in any
kind of large room environment because they tend to amplify the closest
sounds. In most situations, I could hear shuffling, coughing, and
breathing better than a speaker. Most people do not move their lips
well when they speak, also, so lip-reading is not easy. However, the
pastor at this church spoke in such a way that I could lip-read almost
every word. After the service, I *had* to compliment him on this. When
I told him why, he asked if he could pray for my hearing to be
restored. Whoa! Way out of the realm of my experience with church. But
I figured it couldn't hurt, so I said yes, and he did.

I felt something (which I now know was the Holy Spirit), but I still
couldn't hear. We left the church and went back to our tent. Over the
course of that afternoon, I got sick... I mean, really really sick. I
spent most of that evening and the next morning in the bathhouse,
puking my guts out and hallucinating (or maybe NOT). I felt greatly
burdened to tell my old gods that they had to leave me, and spent a
great deal of time between vomiting, doing just that. (I think I
neglected to mention that my trad was egyptian...they had a deity for
*everything*.)

Now, I'd taken my hearing aids out the night before (you don't wear
them to bed) and never put them back in. Besides, violent facial
contortions, like vomiting or coughing, tend to hurt when you have them
in. Anyways... at about 2 Monday afternoon, I started to feel better.
Weak, but better. So I went back to the tent and my husband asked how I
was feeling. I realized, mid-sentence, that I'd heard what he said and
I wasn't wearing my hearing aids. I was able to hear what my kids said
for the first time in a VERY long time. What a blessing!

Needless to say, now I serve God and love Him with all my heart!



This userpage was printed from ExWitch Ministries
http://www.exwitch.org/cms/
The URL for this userpage is:
http://www.exwitch.org/cms//mod.php?mod=userpage&page_id=24
tzarkaztyk
2006-05-08 06:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Absolutely love the testimonials, but I have to wonder.....

is it really God that has come to save you in your time of desperation and
need ? OR could it be something that wants to take advantage of your
vulnerability ? What if something has deceived you into leaving a rue path
for a false one ? Your own Jesus said *and ye shall know a prophet by his
works* and the works spoken of are a prophets legacy. The legacy of
christianity for the last 2003 years has been more bloodshed and murder than
all the plagues in history. SO.....are you sure it is God telling you not to
allow others to use that which sets man above the angels and makes us the
closest creature to His heart...our freewill ?

Let us heathens be. Go your own way, believe us evil if you will, for at
least I believe that your faith is the most perverted destructive lie that
has ever existed on this planet.

this is all the food I'll throw to trolls
wassail and merry part


<***@lightspeed.ca> wrote in message
news:***@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>
> http://exwitch.org/cms/mod.php?mod=userpage&menu=1600&page_id=24
> Testimony of Kathi Sharpe
n***@lightspeed.ca
2006-05-08 06:51:04 UTC
Permalink
There is a real difference between humanistic elements of Christianity
and the teaching and person of Jesus. A casual reading of the gospel
of Mark or John will reveal the difference. Many ex-wiccans who have
encountered the real Jesus will reveal this you.


http://www.exwitch.org/cms/
The URL for this userpage is:
http://www.exwitch.org/cms//mod.php?mod=userpage&page_id=24
Seamus
2006-05-08 15:40:51 UTC
Permalink
>From out of the Void, ***@lightspeed.ca announced the Terrible
Secret of Space:

>There is a real difference between humanistic elements of Christianity
>and the teaching and person of Jesus. A casual reading of the gospel
>of Mark or John will reveal the difference. Many ex-wiccans who have
>encountered the real Jesus will reveal this you.

All you've done is spout off rhetoric. None of it is really an opinion.
But then, many Christians are PROUD of being sheep. Sheep don't have
opinions.

Look. The problems with spouting off at someone that "my god is better
than /your/ god" bullshit are

a.) you're not really doing Christianity (as a whole) any favors by
screaming to a group of (resonably) level-headed people. When someone
does something like that, most rational people roll their eyes, and say
"well, there's another nutter."

b.) This argument could literally go on forever. To Each His Own. Get
over it.

c.) Spirituality is most powerful when taken on a heart-by-heart basis.
If I was meant to be Christian, I'd feel more comfortable praying to a
nameless Deity. (Jesus has a name, but since Christianity as a whole
cannot agree on whether or not he was THE SON of God, or His Avatar,
it's anyone's guess.) A God is not a tube sock. One God does not fit
every persons' viewpoint.

d.) "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of
view."

e.) Your practices on this ng are a shining example of why most of us
DON'T want to be Christian.

So chill out and accept the fact that not everyone else is like you,
or respectfully leave us alone.

Thank you.
Seamus
2006-05-08 15:42:19 UTC
Permalink
And understanding that Christianity doesn't work for everyone will
enlighten you more than you seem to realize.
Nevermore
2006-05-09 00:17:20 UTC
Permalink
In <***@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> noahdove7@
lightspeed.ca wrote:
> From: ***@lightspeed.ca
> Newsgroups: alt.pagan,uk.religion.pagan,alt.religion.wicca,alt.fan.
> harry-potter,alt.christnet.demonology Subject: Re: In And Out Of Wicca -
> A Former Wiccan Speaks Date: 7 May 2006 23:51:04 -0700 Organization:
> http://groups.google.com
>
> There is a real difference between humanistic elements of Christianity
> and the teaching and person of Jesus. A casual reading of the gospel
> of Mark or John will reveal the difference. Many ex-wiccans who have
> encountered the real Jesus will reveal this you.

Skip the "casual" reading of the gospels. A critical reading will
reveal that Mark and John can't get their story straight on whether
Jesus performed miracles, what they were, and what happened on the day
he supposedly died and was resurrected. Kind of strange considering
both of them were supposedly "there", don't you think?

Nevermore (You don't think, do you?)
Dirk Bruere
2006-05-08 12:10:41 UTC
Permalink
***@lightspeed.ca wrote:

> Needless to say, now I serve God and love Him with all my heart!

ie spamming for god and pissing off a whole load of people who, at best,
consider you a deluded fool.

FFF
Dirk
Nechesh
2006-05-08 16:25:46 UTC
Permalink
***@lightspeed.ca wrote:

> Needless to say, now I serve God and love Him with all my heart!

Slaves serve Donalyn.

It wasn't just your car you lost control of, but your life and your
soul as well.

I would pity your unfortunate state, being posessed by the slave god of
the Bible, but frankly I don't care.

May you wither and despair under the terrible shadow of the Demiurge,
you poor deluded fool.

In the bosom of Brigid

Nechesh
Nevermore
2006-05-09 00:05:16 UTC
Permalink
In <***@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com> noahdove7@
lightspeed.ca wrote:
> So, in utter arrogance, I asked God to prove it. Prove He wanted me,
> Prove He's real. I work with an internet company. We'd purchased a
> piece of software months before this happened, and I could not get one
> of the features to work. I'd written to a user's group for assistance
> about 3 months before, and no one had answers. I'd given up on the
> thing. So I figured this would be a great test for God. I prayed on a
> Monday afternoon, "If you're real, God, you need to come down here and
> not only solve this problem, solve it in a way that I know it's you."
>
> Tuesday right after lunchtime, I checked my email. In it was a letter
> from someone on that user's group with the answer to my problem. Not
> only was it the exact solution, the email address was from
> @christianity.net.
>
> You can't deny that kind of answer, now can you? :) This person was
> also an AIM user, so I was able to talk to him via IM... fortunately
> his boss was very understanding, because we talked for two whole days
> He answered my questions, cleared up my incorrect assumptions, and
> told me about the great love of Jesus. At the end of the two days, I
> gave my heart to the Lord.

Did you little friend tell you that Jesus was made up in the Second
Century A.D. from a compilation of various (ultimately unsuccessful)
wandering rabbis stretching over a nearly 300 year period of Jewish
history who stories got ripped from their context and folded into Roman
mercantile cults?

www.jesusneverexisted.com

Maybe if you'd pay more attention to tech support and computer science
you wouldn't have to join a new religion every time your email hangs up.

Nevermore (Testing God, btw, is defined by the bible as a sin. You're
off to a great start)
Post.Post.Colonial.Boy
2006-05-09 12:21:24 UTC
Permalink
On 7 May 2006 17:18:59 -0700, ***@lightspeed.ca wrote:

>AN OPEN LETTER TO THE WITCHCRAFT AND MAGICAL COMMUNITY
> AN OPEN LETTER TO THE
> WITCHCRAFT AND MAGICAL COMMUNITY
>
> "An ye harm none ... do what ye will." This Wiccan Rede, a
>salient creed among the witchcraft and magickal community, has been expressed in the
>hearts of many druids, magickal people, neo-pagans, pagans, wiccans and
>witches. It has also been expressed by the followers of the Goddess: Artemis,
> Bast, Brigit, Diana, Hecate, Isis, Lilith, Rhiannon and the Male God: Odin

Odin eh?

How would you explain Odin's involvement in various wars then?

How would you explain the human sacrifices, in past, that have been
made to Odin?

Nik

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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l***@ix.netcom.com
2006-05-09 14:29:21 UTC
Permalink
Post.Post.Colonial.Boy wrote:
> On 7 May 2006 17:18:59 -0700, ***@lightspeed.ca wrote:
>
> >AN OPEN LETTER TO THE WITCHCRAFT AND MAGICAL COMMUNITY
> > AN OPEN LETTER TO THE
> > WITCHCRAFT AND MAGICAL COMMUNITY
> >
> > "An ye harm none ... do what ye will." This Wiccan Rede, a
> >salient creed among the witchcraft and magickal community, has been expressed in the
> >hearts of many druids, magickal people, neo-pagans, pagans, wiccans and
> >witches. It has also been expressed by the followers of the Goddess: Artemis,
> > Bast, Brigit, Diana, Hecate, Isis, Lilith, Rhiannon and the Male God: Odin
>
> Odin eh?
>
> How would you explain Odin's involvement in various wars then?
>
> How would you explain the human sacrifices, in past, that have been
> made to Odin?


Personally I'm interested in the inclusion of Bast, the Egyptian cat
goddess, in this list. Anyone who's ever dealt with cats knows that "An
harm ye none" is *not* a part of their vocabulary. And aren't Artemis
and Diana the same goddess?
Dirk Bruere
2006-05-09 14:31:28 UTC
Permalink
***@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> Post.Post.Colonial.Boy wrote:
>> On 7 May 2006 17:18:59 -0700, ***@lightspeed.ca wrote:
>>
>>> AN OPEN LETTER TO THE WITCHCRAFT AND MAGICAL COMMUNITY
>>> AN OPEN LETTER TO THE
>>> WITCHCRAFT AND MAGICAL COMMUNITY
>>>
>>> "An ye harm none ... do what ye will." This Wiccan Rede, a
>>> salient creed among the witchcraft and magickal community, has been expressed in the
>>> hearts of many druids, magickal people, neo-pagans, pagans, wiccans and
>>> witches. It has also been expressed by the followers of the Goddess: Artemis,
>>> Bast, Brigit, Diana, Hecate, Isis, Lilith, Rhiannon and the Male God: Odin
>> Odin eh?
>>
>> How would you explain Odin's involvement in various wars then?
>>
>> How would you explain the human sacrifices, in past, that have been
>> made to Odin?
>
>
> Personally I'm interested in the inclusion of Bast, the Egyptian cat
> goddess, in this list. Anyone who's ever dealt with cats knows that "An
> harm ye none" is *not* a part of their vocabulary. And aren't Artemis
> and Diana the same goddess?

Generally, yes.
Both renowned for hunting.

Speaking as someone on passingly familiar terms with Odin, I would guess
he's laughing at the stupidity and naivety of whoever posted that crap.

FFF
Dirk
rorik
2006-05-09 16:40:26 UTC
Permalink
Dirk Bruere wrote:
>
> Speaking as someone on passingly familiar terms with Odin, I would guess
> he's laughing at the stupidity and naivety of whoever posted that crap.

With all due respect, I'd guess that poster is somebody who believes he
can learn all he needs to know about paganism by "doing" it, rather
than studying it.

regards,
rorik
Dirk Bruere
2006-05-09 16:56:32 UTC
Permalink
rorik wrote:
> Dirk Bruere wrote:
>> Speaking as someone on passingly familiar terms with Odin, I would guess
>> he's laughing at the stupidity and naivety of whoever posted that crap.
>
> With all due respect, I'd guess that poster is somebody who believes he
> can learn all he needs to know about paganism by "doing" it, rather
> than studying it.

I'd say neither.
He's certainly never 'done' Asatru.

FFF
Dirk
rorik
2006-05-09 17:36:53 UTC
Permalink
Dirk Bruere wrote:
> rorik wrote:
> > Dirk Bruere wrote:
> >> Speaking as someone on passingly familiar terms with Odin, I would guess
> >> he's laughing at the stupidity and naivety of whoever posted that crap.
> >
> > With all due respect, I'd guess that poster is somebody who believes he
> > can learn all he needs to know about paganism by "doing" it, rather
> > than studying it.
>
> I'd say neither.
> He's certainly never 'done' Asatru.

But not having studied it, he probably thinks he has 'done' it.

regards,
rorik
Post.Post.Colonial.Boy
2006-05-09 20:29:06 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 09 May 2006 15:31:28 +0100, Dirk Bruere
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>***@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> Post.Post.Colonial.Boy wrote:
>>> On 7 May 2006 17:18:59 -0700, ***@lightspeed.ca wrote:
>>>
>>>> AN OPEN LETTER TO THE WITCHCRAFT AND MAGICAL COMMUNITY
>>>> AN OPEN LETTER TO THE
>>>> WITCHCRAFT AND MAGICAL COMMUNITY
>>>>
>>>> "An ye harm none ... do what ye will." This Wiccan Rede, a
>>>> salient creed among the witchcraft and magickal community, has been expressed in the
>>>> hearts of many druids, magickal people, neo-pagans, pagans, wiccans and
>>>> witches. It has also been expressed by the followers of the Goddess: Artemis,
>>>> Bast, Brigit, Diana, Hecate, Isis, Lilith, Rhiannon and the Male God: Odin
>>> Odin eh?
>>>
>>> How would you explain Odin's involvement in various wars then?
>>>
>>> How would you explain the human sacrifices, in past, that have been
>>> made to Odin?
>>
>>
>> Personally I'm interested in the inclusion of Bast, the Egyptian cat
>> goddess, in this list. Anyone who's ever dealt with cats knows that "An
>> harm ye none" is *not* a part of their vocabulary. And aren't Artemis
>> and Diana the same goddess?
>
>Generally, yes.
>Both renowned for hunting.
>
>Speaking as someone on passingly familiar terms with Odin, I would guess
>he's laughing at the stupidity and naivety of whoever posted that crap.

Indeed I am, long and hard.

Nik

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http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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l***@ix.netcom.com
2006-05-09 21:07:13 UTC
Permalink
Post.Post.Colonial.Boy wrote:

>-show quoted text-

> Indeed I am, long and hard.

Just as an aside: On Google Groups, everything prior to your one-liner
there was snipped and turned into a link, with all the context removed.
That sorta puts a different spin on what you're saying...
Post.Post.Colonial.Boy
2006-05-11 04:10:43 UTC
Permalink
On 9 May 2006 14:07:13 -0700, ***@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>Post.Post.Colonial.Boy wrote:
>
>>-show quoted text-
>
>> Indeed I am, long and hard.
>
>Just as an aside: On Google Groups, everything prior to your one-liner
>there was snipped and turned into a link, with all the context removed.
>That sorta puts a different spin on what you're saying...

<cackle>

Nik

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Scott Lowther
2006-05-11 05:12:26 UTC
Permalink
Post.Post.Colonial.Boy wrote:

>On 9 May 2006 14:07:13 -0700, ***@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>
>
>>Post.Post.Colonial.Boy wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>-show quoted text-
>>>
>>>
>>>Indeed I am, long and hard.
>>>
>>>
>>Just as an aside: On Google Groups, everything prior to your one-liner
>>there was snipped and turned into a link, with all the context removed.
>>That sorta puts a different spin on what you're saying...
>>
>>
>
><cackle>
>


Indeed. In and out of Wicca, long and hard...

--
Collectivism killed 100 million people, and all I got was this lousy sig.
bowman
2006-05-11 13:31:11 UTC
Permalink
Scott Lowther wrote:

> Indeed. In and out of Wicca, long and hard...

Whatever. In my limited experience of Wiccans, celibacy looked like the
better alternative unless you favor crones.

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j***@bellsouth.net
2006-05-09 22:06:06 UTC
Permalink
"Post.Post.Colonial.Boy" <***@email.com> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 09 May 2006 15:31:28 +0100, Dirk Bruere
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Speaking as someone on passingly familiar terms with Odin, I would guess
>>he's laughing at the stupidity and naivety of whoever posted that crap.
>
> Indeed I am, long and hard.
>
> Nik


er,....um,....Congratulations?
Post.Post.Colonial.Boy
2006-05-11 04:11:17 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 9 May 2006 17:06:06 -0500, <***@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>
>"Post.Post.Colonial.Boy" <***@email.com> wrote in message
>news:***@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 09 May 2006 15:31:28 +0100, Dirk Bruere
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Speaking as someone on passingly familiar terms with Odin, I would guess
>>>he's laughing at the stupidity and naivety of whoever posted that crap.
>>
>> Indeed I am, long and hard.
>>
>> Nik
>
>er,....um,....Congratulations?

Thanks.

Nik ;)

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Jani
2006-05-09 15:01:27 UTC
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<***@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:***@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Post.Post.Colonial.Boy wrote:
>> On 7 May 2006 17:18:59 -0700, ***@lightspeed.ca wrote:
>>
>> >AN OPEN LETTER TO THE WITCHCRAFT AND MAGICAL COMMUNITY
>> > AN OPEN LETTER TO THE
>> > WITCHCRAFT AND MAGICAL COMMUNITY
>> >
>> > "An ye harm none ... do what ye will." This Wiccan Rede, a
>> >salient creed among the witchcraft and magickal community, has been
>> >expressed in the
>> >hearts of many druids, magickal people, neo-pagans, pagans, wiccans and
>> >witches. It has also been expressed by the followers of the
>> >Goddess: Artemis,
>> > Bast, Brigit, Diana, Hecate, Isis, Lilith, Rhiannon and the Male God:
>> > Odin
>>
>> Odin eh?
>>
>> How would you explain Odin's involvement in various wars then?
>>
>> How would you explain the human sacrifices, in past, that have been
>> made to Odin?
>
>
> Personally I'm interested in the inclusion of Bast, the Egyptian cat
> goddess, in this list. Anyone who's ever dealt with cats knows that "An
> harm ye none" is *not* a part of their vocabulary. And aren't Artemis
> and Diana the same goddess?

Similar attributes, including hunting. And what about Hecate? "Harm none"?
Hah!

Jani
Heather
2006-05-09 16:27:59 UTC
Permalink
Well, we all know that 'An it harm none" is for those fluffy wikkin types
that want the christians to accept them, open armed. The rest of us know
better. The christians would sooner burn us at the stake than accept
anything other than complete submission.

I should know. My mother STILL won't accept me for who I am. She still tells
me I'm going to fry because of a bible passage she read (something about how
someone who knows the path to god (IE: Believe what I believe you heathen!)
and turns away from it, they'll fry longer for deserting.
I can't recall where she got that passage but the first time she read it to
me, I was six months pregnant and she was dating a murdering drug dealer. Oh
yeah, the irony in that.
--
Heather
=^.^= Feline Fanatica Graphics
"Jani" <***@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:***@pipex.net...
>
> <***@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:***@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> Post.Post.Colonial.Boy wrote:
>>> On 7 May 2006 17:18:59 -0700, ***@lightspeed.ca wrote:
>>>
>>> >AN OPEN LETTER TO THE WITCHCRAFT AND MAGICAL COMMUNITY
>>> > AN OPEN LETTER TO THE
>>> > WITCHCRAFT AND MAGICAL COMMUNITY
>>> >
>>> > "An ye harm none ... do what ye will." This Wiccan Rede, a
>>> >salient creed among the witchcraft and magickal community, has been
>>> >expressed in the
>>> >hearts of many druids, magickal people, neo-pagans, pagans, wiccans and
>>> >witches. It has also been expressed by the followers of the
>>> >Goddess: Artemis,
>>> > Bast, Brigit, Diana, Hecate, Isis, Lilith, Rhiannon and the Male God:
>>> > Odin
>>>
>>> Odin eh?
>>>
>>> How would you explain Odin's involvement in various wars then?
>>>
>>> How would you explain the human sacrifices, in past, that have been
>>> made to Odin?
>>
>>
>> Personally I'm interested in the inclusion of Bast, the Egyptian cat
>> goddess, in this list. Anyone who's ever dealt with cats knows that "An
>> harm ye none" is *not* a part of their vocabulary. And aren't Artemis
>> and Diana the same goddess?
>
> Similar attributes, including hunting. And what about Hecate? "Harm none"?
> Hah!
>
> Jani
>
>
>
l***@ix.netcom.com
2006-05-09 17:48:46 UTC
Permalink
Heather wrote:
> Well, we all know that 'An it harm none" is for those fluffy wikkin types
> that want the christians to accept them, open armed. The rest of us know
> better. The christians would sooner burn us at the stake than accept
> anything other than complete submission.

Some Christians can be kinda snippy. But let's face it: how often do
you see Christians behading infidels on video? Christianity has calmed
down. Other religions haven't. It's not Christians committing genocide
against pagans in Chad and the Sudan, for instance.
Nevermore
2006-05-09 18:09:48 UTC
Permalink
In <***@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com> ***@ix.
netcom.com wrote:
>
> Heather wrote:
>> Well, we all know that 'An it harm none" is for those fluffy wikkin
>> types that want the christians to accept them, open armed. The rest
>> of us know better. The christians would sooner burn us at the stake
>> than accept anything other than complete submission.
>
> Some Christians can be kinda snippy. But let's face it: how often do
> you see Christians behading infidels on video? Christianity has calmed
> down. Other religions haven't. It's not Christians committing genocide
> against pagans in Chad and the Sudan, for instance.
>
I can overlook the occasional beheading but cheap suits are a crime
against humanity.

Nevermore
Nicholas Thomas
2006-05-09 19:45:38 UTC
Permalink
Nevermore wrote:
> In <***@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com> ***@ix.
> netcom.com wrote:
>> Heather wrote:
>>> Well, we all know that 'An it harm none" is for those fluffy wikkin
>>> types that want the christians to accept them, open armed. The rest
>>> of us know better. The christians would sooner burn us at the stake
>>> than accept anything other than complete submission.
>> Some Christians can be kinda snippy. But let's face it: how often do
>> you see Christians behading infidels on video? Christianity has calmed
>> down. Other religions haven't. It's not Christians committing genocide
>> against pagans in Chad and the Sudan, for instance.
>>
> I can overlook the occasional beheading but cheap suits are a crime
> against humanity.
>
> Nevermore

And it's not Christians who are abusing and murdering children, on the
assumption that they are (in the BBC's words) "witches", is it? (Yes, I
know - "possessed" is a much closer approximation, but try telling that
to the headline writers...). People like "Prophet" Onokoko, f'rinstance.

Oh, of course, he can't be a real Christian... sorry. I see it now: not
only is he *not* white, middle-class and well-off (after all, your god
"apparently" rewards his most faithful with material wealth... lol...),
but he's not exactly PC either, is he (well, that's probably the
understatement of the year, but you know what I mean...)

We all die. I, for one, don't particularly care about what's going to
happen afterwards, because I can't influence it - any more than you can.
That is, of course, assuming that anything except decomposition is going
to happen ;)... although I am leaning towards "something" happening... I
can't exactly rely on a book printed on low-quality toilet paper to tell
me all about it, can I?

xF,

...Nick
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