Discussion:
Places of worship
(too old to reply)
Rhiannon S
2004-10-20 13:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Ok, this will probably sound silly (since it's me asking), but ever since that
megalithic vandal thread a couple of weeks ago I've been wondering; do pagans
(however you define the term) make any new places of worship?

I mean all the other religions do, even though they do use old ones too, but it
seems that pagans only ever use old sites, there doesn't seem to be any new
ones. Which seems strange to me because paganism is really a new religion, ok
it may borrow as many old bits as possible but it is still a new rather cobbled
together belief system. Does the re-using of old sites such as Stonehenge, the
Rollrights etc give some sort of heritage that we're lacking? And why aren't
we making new sites, or are we and I haven't heard about them?

Are there any new circle and henges being made, and if so what is the symbolism
behind them, or are they just copies because "the ancients" did it that way?
Are there any new sacred groves being planted, and if so what makes them
sacred? Does the act of people turning up for worship in a "safe area" count
as a sacred place?

I'm going back to the question of why aren't we making new places of worship.
Is it because there is no central figure in paganism, or wicca, or druidism,
etc? Does the word "etc" in the previous question explain it, is paganism such
a loose collective that it would be impossible to agree on a sacred site much
less find the resources to buy land and develop it? Or is it something else?

Finally, if you were building a scared place what would you put in it, and
where would you put it?

Me, being the fuffy bunny that I am, I'd have to have it somewhere in the
countryside. But close enough to a major transport hub as possible. I'd also
put in a big carpark too. Something wooden or perhaps a converted barn, with a
big library, several large rooms with big windows where people can congregate
and discuss things or possible just have a cup of coffee, perhaps a few smaller
rooms for meditating, or just being alone with your thoughts. A kitchen (of
course, and a workroom attached to the kitchen for experiments), a herb garden
and I'd definately include an orchard interspaced with a few yew trees (no real
pagan reason, it's just that I happen to like yew trees anyway).

And a big area for fires and burning inquisitive policemen too. Ok, maybe just
for bonfires only.

What about anyone else?
--
Rhiannon
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rhiannon_s/
"The trick is to commit crimes so confusing that police feel too stupid to even
write a crime report about them."
Aubrey on remaining at liberty
www.somethingpositive.net
Rexx
2004-10-20 13:28:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhiannon S
I'm going back to the question of why aren't we making new places of
worship. Is it because there is no central figure in paganism, or wicca,
or druidism, etc?
I think it's both this and the fact that Paganism is still in the
'reconstruction' phase, so to speak - so people tend to want to grab onto
old things to reclaim, rather than making new places.
--
"Your epidermis appears most supple.
Would you be willing to trade it for a diamond scarab?"

AC Herbal - http://www.rexx.co.uk/herbal
MPGZAC FAQ - http://www.rexx.co.uk/ac/faq.htm
For email, visit a site.
Romauld
2004-10-20 13:52:12 UTC
Permalink
Recently, a script from Rexx arrived, in which they said:

: On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 13:13:07 GMT, Rhiannon S scrawled:
:
:> I'm going back to the question of why aren't we making new places of
:> worship. Is it because there is no central figure in paganism, or wicca,
:> or druidism, etc?
:
: I think it's both this and the fact that Paganism is still in the
: 'reconstruction' phase, so to speak - so people tend to want to grab onto
: old things to reclaim, rather than making new places.

I'm quoting both of these, because what I'm about to say is
relevant to both.

There is another element. To take the easiest example (the Anglican
church, in these islands), when the Church builds a new Cathedral they
don't even come *close* to building anything that could compare with
the great Norman naves for scale, grandeur, lasting architecture or
straight power. The reason for that is that these things were expensive
then, they're *really* expensive now.

To build something of the scale of, say, Amesbury, would be quite
staggeringly expensive in a modern economy.

Which incarnation of modern Paganism has any idea how you select
and dedicate the stones, what accompanies their erection, how you
would 'fix' or 'consecrate' or whatever a new circle? How many of
the Pagan community would have the confidance in their own skills
and powers to even derive new guidlines or ceremonies for such an
undertaking?

There are specific rites associated with ordination, with consecration
of ground, with investment in a new diocesan house, and so on. The
Pagan world does not, to my knowledge have such a thing [1]. Or the
cash required. Building great religious monuments is staggeringly expensive,
even if you know how.

I'm interested by your question, because it's something I've considered
myself; how would I, were I to commit myself to a pagan path, go about
designing, constructing and dedicating a sacred space analogous to a church,
mosque, synagogue or burial mound?

~R

[1] Caveat. CW/co, do 'new' Groves such as Anderida Gorsedd have
physical analogues? (ie. actual groves that have been dedicated as
the 'home' of the gathering of Druids?) If they do, I understand you
probably aren't going to talk about how you go about founding and
dedicating said groves in a public forum, but if I ever *do* manage
to end up in the same pub as yourselves I'd very much like to talk
to you about whatever elements you are allowed to discuss.
--
Romauld - romauld at necrotheque dot dcu

"Imagination: the one effective weapon in the war against reality."
- http://www.geocities.com/vasudevanvrv/deftdef2.htm
Morgan Azstarelle
2004-10-20 15:37:41 UTC
Permalink
"Romauld" wrote
<snip>
Post by Romauld
To build something of the scale of, say, Amesbury, would be quite
staggeringly expensive in a modern economy.
do you mean Avebury Circle?
Amesbury's the town near StoneHenge...

Mogs
Romauld
2004-10-20 15:51:05 UTC
Permalink
Recently, a script from Morgan Azstarelle arrived, in which they said:

: do you mean Avebury Circle?
: Amesbury's the town near StoneHenge...

*doh* yes I do. thank you.

~R
--
Romauld - romauld at necrotheque dot dcu

"Imagination: the one effective weapon in the war against reality."
- http://www.geocities.com/vasudevanvrv/deftdef2.htm
Morgan Azstarelle
2004-10-21 14:49:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Romauld
: do you mean Avebury Circle?
: Amesbury's the town near StoneHenge...
*doh* yes I do. thank you.
tis ok mate,
i live near them and lots of people get them confused...

especially tourists with maps...
who don't know about the buses...

sorry for being grumpy in the other thread...

xx

Morgan
janet
2004-10-22 09:18:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rexx
Post by Rhiannon S
I'm going back to the question of why aren't we making new places of
worship. Is it because there is no central figure in paganism, or
wicca, or druidism, etc?
I think it's both this and the fact that Paganism is still in the
'reconstruction' phase, so to speak - so people tend to want to
grab
Post by Rexx
onto old things to reclaim, rather than making new places.
There is also, I have noted many times, an assumption that old is
better and that things MUST have a historical basis.

This fascinates me because I have a sneaking suspicion where the
idea comes from but...
--
janet
texestentialist
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/index.php
M.H.
2004-10-20 14:36:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhiannon S
Ok, this will probably sound silly (since it's me asking), but ever since that
megalithic vandal thread a couple of weeks ago I've been wondering; do pagans
(however you define the term) make any new places of worship?
There is the new stone circle on a farm in Yorkshire, which is used for
rituals, and there is a camp site nearby for people to use.
Margaret
Romauld
2004-10-20 14:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Recently, a script from M.H. arrived, in which they said:

: There is the new stone circle on a farm in Yorkshire, which is used for
: rituals, and there is a camp site nearby for people to use.

Wow. I'd like even more to talk to whoever built that about
what they did while building it.

~R
--
Romauld - romauld at necrotheque dot dcu

"Imagination: the one effective weapon in the war against reality."
- http://www.geocities.com/vasudevanvrv/deftdef2.htm
Mad Witch
2004-10-20 15:46:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Romauld
: There is the new stone circle on a farm in Yorkshire, which is used for
: rituals, and there is a camp site nearby for people to use.
Wow. I'd like even more to talk to whoever built that about
what they did while building it.
I have the name address and phone number. Better still come to a certain
camp next year and see for yourself...

X
MW
francis
2004-10-21 10:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Wow. I'd like even more to talk to whoever built that about what they
did while building it.
Please see my other message elsewhere in this thread. Do come and join
us round about the time of Lammas. And bring do YL - or a bevy of YLs.
Everyone is made very welcome.

PS: Madwitch and Geoff were there this year.
--
Francis
francis
2004-10-21 10:49:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.H.
There is the new stone circle on a farm in Yorkshire, which is used for
rituals, and there is a camp site nearby for people to use. Margaret
And very good it is too. There's a sacred spring on site as well. Those
interested please 'goto' [sorry about that!]

***@yahoogroups.com
--
Francis
M.H.
2004-10-20 14:37:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhiannon S
Ok, this will probably sound silly (since it's me asking), but ever since that
megalithic vandal thread a couple of weeks ago I've been wondering; do pagans
(however you define the term) make any new places of worship?
I should have said ...it's Oakleaf Farm, and they have a website.
Margaret
Romauld
2004-10-20 14:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Recently, a script from M.H. arrived, in which they said:

: I should have said ...it's Oakleaf Farm, and they have a website.
: Margaret

Thank you :)

~R
--
Romauld - romauld at necrotheque dot dcu

"Imagination: the one effective weapon in the war against reality."
- http://www.geocities.com/vasudevanvrv/deftdef2.htm
Cursuswalker
2004-10-20 15:46:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhiannon S
Ok, this will probably sound silly (since it's me asking), but ever since that
megalithic vandal thread a couple of weeks ago I've been wondering; do pagans
(however you define the term) make any new places of worship?
Well my local Druid Gorsedd has used a picnic field next to a convenient
car-park for the last 5 years, on and off, as it allows access to the
disabled and those with kids.

It is within the sight of the Long Man of Wilmington, but is not a sacred
site itself. Or rather wasn't before we started to regard it as one.

For a start I was first hand-fasted to Sorcha there...

But here's the rub: The Local Council are trying to ban us from using it, as
the landlord who leases it to the Council for "public" use has decided we
are too obnoxious and noisy to be allowed to continue.

This is now the subject of an official complaint to the Council by us.

Watch this space...
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
janet
2004-10-22 09:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursuswalker
This is now the subject of an official complaint to the Council by us.
Watch this space...
And for once, a direct link - not something I do often, but it's
easy to watch it here:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/viewthread.php?tid=15546
--
janet
texestentialist
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/index.php
Wood Avens
2004-10-20 17:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhiannon S
Something wooden or perhaps a converted barn, with a
big library, several large rooms with big windows where people can congregate
and discuss things or possible just have a cup of coffee, perhaps a few smaller
rooms for meditating, or just being alone with your thoughts. A kitchen (of
course, and a workroom attached to the kitchen for experiments), a herb garden
and I'd definately include an orchard interspaced with a few yew trees (no real
pagan reason, it's just that I happen to like yew trees anyway).
Sounds uncannily like the virtual URP-space ...
--
Wood Avens

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Halla
2004-10-20 17:20:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhiannon S
Ok, this will probably sound silly (since it's me asking),
Pshaw.
Post by Rhiannon S
but ever since that
megalithic vandal thread a couple of weeks ago I've been wondering; do pagans
(however you define the term) make any new places of worship?
Well there's the Forest House but I don't know much about it.

http://www.shansweb.co.uk/foresthouse/gallery/index.html

<snip lots of interesting stuff cos I dunno>
Post by Rhiannon S
I'm going back to the question of why aren't we making new places of worship.
Is it because there is no central figure in paganism, or wicca, or druidism,
etc?
So you're saying existing worhsipy buildings are built as monuments to
someone-or-other?
Post by Rhiannon S
Does the word "etc" in the previous question explain it, is paganism such
a loose collective that it would be impossible to agree on a sacred site much
less find the resources to buy land and develop it? Or is it something else?
Heh. think you might be onto something there - who would buy the land,
and if they did, what happens if X person doesn't like the landowner?
Pagans are just as spatty and catty as everyone else, after all. Would
everyone be comfortable going and worshipping in some place owned by a
known individual? (rather than bits that are currently owned by
councils or local authorities or whatever, I mean)
Post by Rhiannon S
Finally, if you were building a scared place what would you put in it, and
where would you put it?
Me, being the fuffy bunny that I am, I'd have to have it somewhere in the
countryside. But close enough to a major transport hub as possible.
Hmmm. Close to public transport links, mebbe. Although any bit of land
round here I could afford would be considered... <g>
Post by Rhiannon S
I'd also
put in a big carpark too.
To be thoroughly awkward, I'd not put in a big carpark. I'd put a
small carpark, and not tell anyone about it, so that people with
disabilities or injuries could get there in relative comfort but no
lazy folk could dump their car and not bother traipsing through woods
or whatever. (I think I'd put it in a wood) ;-)
Post by Rhiannon S
Something wooden or perhaps a converted barn, with a
big library, several large rooms with big windows where people can congregate
and discuss things or possible just have a cup of coffee, perhaps a few smaller
rooms for meditating, or just being alone with your thoughts. A kitchen (of
course, and a workroom attached to the kitchen for experiments), a herb garden
and I'd definately include an orchard interspaced with a few yew trees (no real
pagan reason, it's just that I happen to like yew trees anyway).
Sounds like your dream house rather than a community thing. ;-)
Post by Rhiannon S
And a big area for fires and burning inquisitive policemen too. Ok, maybe just
for bonfires only.
And barbeques.
Post by Rhiannon S
What about anyone else?
I want a house like that bloke built on Grand Designs - a forest
house[1]. I lust after that house[2]. That would be such a magical
place for Pagany things.

[1]
http://www.channel4.com/4homes/ontv/grand-designs/houses/S/sussex_woodman.html
[2] The woodsman wasn't too bad either...
Rhiannon S
2004-10-20 23:42:05 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Places of worship
Date: 20/10/2004 18:20 GMT Daylight Time
Post by Rhiannon S
Ok, this will probably sound silly (since it's me asking),
Pshaw.
Post by Rhiannon S
but ever since that
megalithic vandal thread a couple of weeks ago I've been wondering; do
pagans
Post by Rhiannon S
(however you define the term) make any new places of worship?
Well there's the Forest House but I don't know much about it.
http://www.shansweb.co.uk/foresthouse/gallery/index.html
very interesting indeed. I guess it's more a case of me not knowing about
stuff.
<snip lots of interesting stuff cos I dunno>
Post by Rhiannon S
I'm going back to the question of why aren't we making new places of
worship.
Post by Rhiannon S
Is it because there is no central figure in paganism, or wicca, or druidism,
etc?
So you're saying existing worhsipy buildings are built as monuments to
someone-or-other?
Generally yes. Someone with lots of cash and possibly employing lots of men
with pointy bits of metal. Well, perhaps only from Roman times onward though.
Post by Rhiannon S
Does the word "etc" in the previous question explain it, is paganism such
a loose collective that it would be impossible to agree on a sacred site
much
Post by Rhiannon S
less find the resources to buy land and develop it? Or is it something
else?
Heh. think you might be onto something there - who would buy the land,
and if they did, what happens if X person doesn't like the landowner?
Pagans are just as spatty and catty as everyone else, after all. Would
everyone be comfortable going and worshipping in some place owned by a
known individual? (rather than bits that are currently owned by
councils or local authorities or whatever, I mean)
good question.
Post by Rhiannon S
Finally, if you were building a scared place what would you put in it, and
where would you put it?
Me, being the fuffy bunny that I am, I'd have to have it somewhere in the
countryside. But close enough to a major transport hub as possible.
Hmmm. Close to public transport links, mebbe. Although any bit of land
round here I could afford would be considered... <g>
Post by Rhiannon S
I'd also
put in a big carpark too.
To be thoroughly awkward, I'd not put in a big carpark. I'd put a
small carpark, and not tell anyone about it, so that people with
disabilities or injuries could get there in relative comfort but no
lazy folk could dump their car and not bother traipsing through woods
or whatever. (I think I'd put it in a wood) ;-)
I just like my car, ok. I think cars are in general a good thing. And
traipsing through woods are fun in nice days but not in persisting rain.
Post by Rhiannon S
Something wooden or perhaps a converted barn, with a
big library, several large rooms with big windows where people can
congregate
Post by Rhiannon S
and discuss things or possible just have a cup of coffee, perhaps a few
smaller
Post by Rhiannon S
rooms for meditating, or just being alone with your thoughts. A kitchen (of
course, and a workroom attached to the kitchen for experiments), a herb
garden
Post by Rhiannon S
and I'd definately include an orchard interspaced with a few yew trees (no
real
Post by Rhiannon S
pagan reason, it's just that I happen to like yew trees anyway).
Sounds like your dream house rather than a community thing. ;-)
It could be both :o) I can add a few holly trees if you like, I'm not fond of
hollies but they are a pagan (tm) tree:o)
Post by Rhiannon S
And a big area for fires and burning inquisitive policemen too. Ok, maybe
just
Post by Rhiannon S
for bonfires only.
And barbeques.
We're back to the policeman roasting then? Tastes like pork...they say.
Post by Rhiannon S
What about anyone else?
I want a house like that bloke built on Grand Designs - a forest
house[1]. I lust after that house[2]. That would be such a magical
place for Pagany things.
[1]
http://www.channel4.com/4homes/ontv/grand-designs/houses/S/sussex_woodman.html
[2] The woodsman wasn't too bad either...
--
Rhiannon
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rhiannon_s/
"The trick is to commit crimes so confusing that police feel too stupid to even
write a crime report about them."
Aubrey on remaining at liberty
www.somethingpositive.net
blaadyblah
2004-10-21 07:08:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhiannon S
Subject: Re: Places of worship
Date: 20/10/2004 18:20 GMT Daylight Time
It could be both :o) I can add a few holly trees if you like, I'm not fond of
hollies but they are a pagan (tm) tree:o)
There are pagan and non pagan trees?! Woah... ;o)

Flick.
--
I'm not concerned about the glass being half full or half empty.
I've always got another bottle.
Halla
2004-10-21 08:53:35 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 08:08:08 +0100, blaadyblah
Post by blaadyblah
Post by Rhiannon S
Subject: Re: Places of worship
Date: 20/10/2004 18:20 GMT Daylight Time
It could be both :o) I can add a few holly trees if you like, I'm not fond of
hollies but they are a pagan (tm) tree:o)
There are pagan and non pagan trees?! Woah... ;o)
Well there's pagan and non-pagan people, after all... :-)
Rhiannon S
2004-10-21 11:22:28 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Places of worship
Date: 21/10/2004 08:08 GMT Daylight Time
Post by Rhiannon S
Subject: Re: Places of worship
Date: 20/10/2004 18:20 GMT Daylight Time
It could be both :o) I can add a few holly trees if you like, I'm not fond
of
Post by Rhiannon S
hollies but they are a pagan (tm) tree:o)
There are pagan and non pagan trees?! Woah... ;o)
Sure, haven't you heard, those rowans really hate witches, they're the daily
mail readers of the tree world. Actually, being made into a copy of the daily
mail is like heaven to a rowan, they tell their saplings that if they are bad
they go to the gaurdian printing works....

Reality isn't even a nice place to visit
--
Rhiannon
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rhiannon_s/
"The trick is to commit crimes so confusing that police feel too stupid to even
write a crime report about them."
Aubrey on remaining at liberty
www.somethingpositive.net
Halla
2004-10-21 17:05:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhiannon S
Subject: Re: Places of worship
Date: 21/10/2004 08:08 GMT Daylight Time
Post by Rhiannon S
Subject: Re: Places of worship
Date: 20/10/2004 18:20 GMT Daylight Time
It could be both :o) I can add a few holly trees if you like, I'm not fond
of
Post by Rhiannon S
hollies but they are a pagan (tm) tree:o)
There are pagan and non pagan trees?! Woah... ;o)
Sure, haven't you heard, those rowans really hate witches, they're the daily
mail readers of the tree world.
Pah. The one out the back garden, after losing all its leaves
prematurely, has now budded again. I don't remember seeing quite such
fat healthy buds on trees at this time of year before, but then
perhaps I never paid attention.
Post by Rhiannon S
Actually, being made into a copy of the daily
mail is like heaven to a rowan, they tell their saplings that if they are bad
they go to the gaurdian printing works....
Reality isn't even a nice place to visit
Quite. <g>
Halla
2004-10-21 08:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhiannon S
Subject: Re: Places of worship
Date: 20/10/2004 18:20 GMT Daylight Time
<sniplet>
Post by Rhiannon S
very interesting indeed. I guess it's more a case of me not knowing about
stuff.
Or that there's nothing more local being set up so you wouldn't have
had any reason to see info.

<snip>
Post by Rhiannon S
So you're saying existing worhsipy buildings are built as monuments to
someone-or-other?
Generally yes. Someone with lots of cash and possibly employing lots of men
with pointy bits of metal. Well, perhaps only from Roman times onward though.
So a symbol of old oppression - the populace were required to go to
these buildings, and now we don't want to be told what to do?

<snip>
Post by Rhiannon S
Post by Rhiannon S
Finally, if you were building a scared place what would you put in it, and
where would you put it?
Me, being the fuffy bunny that I am, I'd have to have it somewhere in the
countryside. But close enough to a major transport hub as possible.
[...]
Post by Rhiannon S
To be thoroughly awkward, I'd not put in a big carpark. I'd put a
small carpark, and not tell anyone about it, so that people with
disabilities or injuries could get there in relative comfort but no
lazy folk could dump their car and not bother traipsing through woods
or whatever. (I think I'd put it in a wood) ;-)
I just like my car, ok.
I like my car too, but I also really dislike it. Cars are bad, I can't
really argue with that. :-|
Post by Rhiannon S
I think cars are in general a good thing.
They aren't, actually. Sorry. :-)

I know it's a difference in POV but cars don't seem especially Pagan
to me - OK individual ones might, but as a group of things they're not
at all IMO. I just can't picture a specifically Pagan place (which in
my head would need a big bit of Outdoors) with a large car park. :-/
Post by Rhiannon S
And
traipsing through woods are fun in nice days but not in persisting rain.
Take waterproofs. <g> Getting close to nature does result in mud, it's
true. Round here that is nature's preferred state, it seems. Muddy.
With added mud. (OK so I was traipsing through a wood and a sheep
field yesterday, and it was... yep, muddy.)
Post by Rhiannon S
Post by Rhiannon S
Something wooden or perhaps a converted barn, [...]
Sounds like your dream house rather than a community thing. ;-)
It could be both :o) I can add a few holly trees if you like, I'm not fond of
hollies but they are a pagan (tm) tree:o)
Aren't they all? <g> (Seriously - aren't they all? Even the furriners.
<g>)
Post by Rhiannon S
Post by Rhiannon S
And a big area for fires and burning inquisitive policemen too. Ok, maybe
just
Post by Rhiannon S
for bonfires only.
And barbeques.
We're back to the policeman roasting then? Tastes like pork...they say.
It's too early in the morning for comments about eating people... :-)

Anyway, there must be *some* way to deal with nosey parker busybodies
wandering onto the land. :-> A large flame pit seems like a good
idea... ;-)

<sniplet>
francis
2004-10-21 10:55:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Halla
Heh. think you might be onto something there - who would buy the land,
and if they did, what happens if X person doesn't like the landowner?
Which reminds me. There is, or there was, or there might be, an
organisation with a Unicorn camp on their own plot of land in southwest
Cornwall. They planted a grove of trees there a few years ago. I was
there for their Lammas camp in 1995 - though I've had nothing to do with
them since. They used to put out a Camp Scene leaflet each year - and
IIRC it also turned up on line. I've not Googled for it. Hands up! I
admit.

Me a cowboy, me a cowboy, me a Mexican cowboy ..
--
Francis
Corvus
2004-10-20 20:18:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhiannon S
Ok, this will probably sound silly (since it's me asking), but ever since that
megalithic vandal thread a couple of weeks ago I've been wondering; do pagans
(however you define the term) make any new places of worship?
Well, there is the new stone circle at Squire Eavis' farm at
Glastonbury. When we were there, a few years ago, it was charged to an
astonishing level. Even my Better Half, never before known to be
sensitive, got it full wattage, much to her astonishment (and my
amusement) - the expression on her face was priceless!

Corvus
--
EMAIL SPAM BLOCK! Replace 'deadspam' with 'highlygreen' to reply in email.
(See http://www.deadspam.com/)
herald
2004-10-21 08:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhiannon S
Ok, this will probably sound silly (since it's me asking), but ever since that
megalithic vandal thread a couple of weeks ago I've been wondering; do pagans
(however you define the term) make any new places of worship?
There's stuff happening in Glastonbury..
http://www.goddesstemple.co.uk/season/temple.html

Herald
francis
2004-10-21 10:45:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhiannon S
I mean all the other religions do, even though they do use old ones
too, but it seems that pagans only ever use old sites, there doesn't
seem to be any new ones.
I know of individual covens who have found a suitable part of the
woodland for their regular rituals. Over quite a short period of time
these become truly sacred sites. So, be of good cheer. It's happening
all the time!
--
Francis
Jymn
2004-10-21 14:16:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhiannon S
Ok, this will probably sound silly (since it's me asking), but
ever since that megalithic vandal thread a couple of weeks ago
I've been wondering; do pagans (however you define the term)
make any new places of worship?
I suspect this partly depends on how you define place of worship.
Many of the Pagans I know tend not to go for buildings for ritual and
festival use, though they will use the same space repeatedly the emphasis
tends to be on leaving no sign that they were there (any debris left by
others tends to be cleared away as well).
Post by Rhiannon S
I mean all the other religions do, even though they do use old
ones too, but it seems that pagans only ever use old sites,
there doesn't seem to be any new ones. Which seems strange to
me because paganism is really a new religion, ok it may borrow
as many old bits as possible but it is still a new rather
cobbled together belief system. Does the re-using of old
sites such as Stonehenge, the Rollrights etc give some sort of
heritage that we're lacking? And why aren't we making new
sites, or are we and I haven't heard about them?
There are some new sites, the site which is used for Oakleaf Camps has
already been mentioned, Dirk who posts on alt.religion.asatru has mentioned
the aquisition and construction of a hof.
Post by Rhiannon S
Are there any new circle and henges being made, and if so what
is the symbolism behind them, or are they just copies because
"the ancients" did it that way? Are there any new sacred
groves being planted, and if so what makes them sacred? Does
the act of people turning up for worship in a "safe area"
count as a sacred place?
If the whole world is sacred, what need of segregation?
Having said that, and at risk of contradicting myself, there are spaces that
have been repetedly used that become if not more sacred then very special,
but suspect that's as much because they are known and familiar.

I've known of several (and been involved in a couple) of communal land
purchase attempts (and successes) though the aim has been more towards
either communal retreat or preservation of woodland rather than places for
worship per se.

<snip>
Post by Rhiannon S
Finally, if you were building a scared place what would you
put in it, and where would you put it?
Me, being the fuffy bunny that I am, I'd have to have it
somewhere in the countryside. But close enough to a major
transport hub as possible. I'd also put in a big carpark too.
Something wooden or perhaps a converted barn, with a big
library, several large rooms with big windows where people can
congregate and discuss things or possible just have a cup of
coffee, perhaps a few smaller rooms for meditating, or just
being alone with your thoughts. A kitchen (of course, and a
workroom attached to the kitchen for experiments), a herb
garden and I'd definately include an orchard interspaced with
a few yew trees (no real pagan reason, it's just that I happen
to like yew trees anyway).
And a big area for fires and burning inquisitive policemen
too. Ok, maybe just for bonfires only.
What about anyone else?
What your describing, I'd see as a community centre rather than a place of
"worship", though having such a facility adjacent to some serious acerage of
heath and woodland might make me reconsider my description.
None of which reduces my desire for such a facility

Jymn
Cursuswalker
2004-10-21 15:44:53 UTC
Permalink
"Rhiannon S" <***@aol.comlemon> wrote in message news:***@mb-m15.aol.com...
<snip>
Post by Rhiannon S
Finally, if you were building a scared place what would you put in it, and
where would you put it?
I knew I had this hidden somewhere on Google.

This thread from URP in 2000 might be of interest:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2691479280d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=1M%25q4.1723%2474.49048%40nnrp3.clara.net

Which I kicked off with this:
QUOTE BEGINS
____________________________
"Okay, stirring time again.

Permit me to think aloud, Usenet-style.

Imagine at some point in the future a large area of parkland is
established as a "Pagan Park".This is an awful sounding name, and I'm sure
others will be able to think up far better, but it is a working title for
now.
The point of such a place would be, simply, to give to all those who count
themselves as Pagan, in fact anyone who wished to practise their faith in
such a place, an area of attractive countryside in which Pagan practice was
openly welcomed and appropriate sacred places could be established.

This raises the first question: Do we just count ancient sites as sacred
or are we able to establish our own, allowing our beliefs and practices to
be sufficient to render these places "sacred"?
If the answer is yes then consider this: What would you want to create in
such a place?
Would a simple area of countryside be sufficient, or would you want to ask
permission to create a place within the park, if those who ran it were open
to all suggestions.
Obviously I imagine high places and woodland would be features that many
would wish to see in such a park, but what else?
For the sake of argument, one is permitted to plant anything, or to build
using wood,or any other primary plant matter, stone or earth.
Heavy lifting gear is easily available as well as JCB's and any construction
is funded by grants, so ones ambitions need not be limited by any notion of
having to be "realistic".

Personally I would want to establish a "Newhenge".That is to say an
Avebury sized ditch and bank in which large gatherings could be held.
Another idea is a series of stone circles consisting of an outer circle of
365 stones, for the Solar cycle, an inner circle of 30 stones(Well 29.5) for
the Lunar cycle, and between them a circle of 56 stones for the 56 years it
takes for the two cycles to completely synchronise. Truly a stone-circle
for our times.

What about various life-rites being carried out in such a place, including
the establishment of Pagan cemeteries?
Would there be a take up on this and what form should they take?

I tentatively throw this one open to the froup, holding back on some of
my wilder ideas for now. I'm fascinated to see what comes back on this one.


Blessings of Spring...
CURSUSWALKER (The Parkie)
...
/|\
____________________________

QUOTE ENDS

Later in the thread I came up with the idea of calling such a place a
"Pagus", from the latin word for areas that Pagans inhabit.
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
Borin
2004-10-22 11:46:52 UTC
Permalink
The message <cl8lhh$org$***@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
from "Cursuswalker"
Post by Cursuswalker
Imagine at some point in the future a large area of parkland is
established as a "Pagan Park".This is an awful sounding name, and I'm sure
others will be able to think up far better, but it is a working title for
now.
The point of such a place would be, simply, to give to all those who count
themselves as Pagan, in fact anyone who wished to practise their faith in
such a place, an area of attractive countryside in which Pagan practice was
openly welcomed and appropriate sacred places could be established.
Good idea.
As far as I am aware ancient sites have leys running through them and so
far I have not found one that hasn't. This goes for all my local tumuli
and others around the country that I have dowsed. So, presumedly, these
sites represent something special, considering the anomolus nature of
lay lines. The Ancients knew something about them, or sensed they were
there and I have come across individuals that just 'know' they are there
without using rods or hazel twigs, and I am sure this may be more common
than imagined (being one who has to use rods).
Perhaps then, any new sites should be put where leys intersect?
Post by Cursuswalker
This raises the first question: Do we just count ancient sites as sacred
or are we able to establish our own, allowing our beliefs and practices to
be sufficient to render these places "sacred"?
I suppose they would become 'sacred' purely due to the activities that
have traditionally taken place there, discounting my comments above, and
in fact we possibly should regard all wild places to be sacred.
But I wonder if leys are established by human activity?
Post by Cursuswalker
Personally I would want to establish a "Newhenge".That is to say an
Avebury sized ditch and bank in which large gatherings could be held.
Another idea is a series of stone circles consisting of an outer circle of
365 stones, for the Solar cycle, an inner circle of 30 stones(Well 29.5) for
the Lunar cycle, and between them a circle of 56 stones for the 56 years it
takes for the two cycles to completely synchronise. Truly a stone-circle
for our times.
Sounds wonderfull, but check for lay lines before siting!
Post by Cursuswalker
What about various life-rites being carried out in such a place, including
the establishment of Pagan cemeteries?
Would there be a take up on this and what form should they take?
You bet. You might be surprised by the response!
The nearest thing we have here is a privately owned woodland cemy.

Borin
Lady Nina
2004-10-22 20:57:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Borin
in fact we possibly should regard all wild places to be sacred.
I think I aspire to the "all places are sacred, even the rubbish and
syringe strewn ones" [1] approach, but it is very much an aspiration.

[1] perhaps these ones more so, whole train of thought on desperate
lives and desperate measures, solace and comfort is bubbling under
atm.
--
Lady Nina
Really, really ought to get changed and head out.

ZXR400 CG125 mps ZX-9R lrtc
Jani
2004-10-22 23:06:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lady Nina
Post by Borin
in fact we possibly should regard all wild places to be sacred.
I think I aspire to the "all places are sacred, even the rubbish and
syringe strewn ones" [1] approach, but it is very much an aspiration.
[1] perhaps these ones more so, whole train of thought on desperate
lives and desperate measures, solace and comfort is bubbling under
atm.
Hmm. If everywhere is sacred including as-mentioned-above, then presumably
one goes for "more sacred than others". Otherwise, if you follow it through
to the logical conclusion, you end up with a very broad paradigm in which
phrases like "ground being" start being tossed around, and you end up with a
christian telling you that that's what they said in the first place ;)

I don't think "wild places" are any more sacred than any other places. I
*do* think that humans who have totally lost their ability to live with, as
opposed to on, wild places are missing out on a lot - but then they also
gain a lot, as well. It depends whether you want to be part of the
multi-dimensional-web, or just make the most of the surface. Listening to
some of the crap that's talked on the American ngs, they seem to have
totally and utterly lost the plot, as far as "sacred" and "land" is
concerned.

Jani
(putting several rants back in the box and sitting on the lid)
'Thenie
2004-10-23 09:25:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jani
Post by Lady Nina
Post by Borin
in fact we possibly should regard all wild places to be
sacred.
Post by Jani
Post by Lady Nina
I think I aspire to the "all places are sacred, even the
rubbish and
Post by Jani
Post by Lady Nina
syringe strewn ones" [1] approach, but it is very much an
aspiration.
Post by Jani
Post by Lady Nina
[1] perhaps these ones more so, whole train of thought on
desperate
Post by Jani
Post by Lady Nina
lives and desperate measures, solace and comfort is bubbling
under
Post by Jani
Post by Lady Nina
atm.
Fascinating concept.
Post by Jani
Hmm. If everywhere is sacred including as-mentioned-above, then presumably
one goes for "more sacred than others". Otherwise, if you follow it through
to the logical conclusion, you end up with a very broad paradigm in which
phrases like "ground being" start being tossed around, and you
end up with a
Post by Jani
christian telling you that that's what they said in the first
place ;)

I also subscribe to the "all places are sacred" view, though it's
dissonance that interferes with the ability to perceive it.
Dissonance can be the rubbish and syringes, but it can also be the
wounding of the energies and entities in a place. Overlay by
overlay, that which was first laid down gets drowned out by
subsequent layers of energy and power. Some things dissipate over
time, but newer things stick for a time. Still, under it all, is
the power of the Earth and the more power local entities.

ISTM nothing goes farther in reclamation of the sacred and the
'feel' of it than just turning and treating a place with the
reverence and respect all places are due. In that respect, one is
merely removing the dissonance (or consciously separating from it)
that prevents one from recognising the sacredness inherent and
already present there.

Apart from that, depending on our own inner arrangement (which
creates certain areas of clarity and other areas of dissonance),
some places and entities and even energies are more successful at
piercing human thickheadedness than others, more to do with the
unique inner arrangements of the unique individual humans (and
sometimes other lifeforms) than any special quality of that which
manages the piercing. It's a matter of matching up the light with
the area of lesser blindness, IYSWIM.
Post by Jani
I don't think "wild places" are any more sacred than any other
places. I
Post by Jani
*do* think that humans who have totally lost their ability to
live with, as
Post by Jani
opposed to on, wild places are missing out on a lot - but then
they also
Post by Jani
gain a lot, as well. It depends whether you want to be part of
the
Post by Jani
multi-dimensional-web, or just make the most of the surface.
Listening to
Post by Jani
some of the crap that's talked on the American ngs, they seem to have
totally and utterly lost the plot, as far as "sacred" and "land" is
concerned.
Jani
(putting several rants back in the box and sitting on the lid)
Ah, go on; pull those rants on out. I'd particularly like to hear
your take on "the crap that's talked on the American ngs" (some of
which I may have inadvertently demonstrated above). Not being
argumentative, mind, just interested in your POV and rationale
(Really, I am interested in all POV's; it's what makes up this
world.)

-'Thenie
Jani
2004-10-23 11:46:57 UTC
Permalink
[]
Post by Jani
Listening to
Post by Jani
some of the crap that's talked on the American ngs, they seem to
have
Post by Jani
totally and utterly lost the plot, as far as "sacred" and "land"
is
Post by Jani
concerned.
Jani
(putting several rants back in the box and sitting on the lid)
Ah, go on; pull those rants on out. I'd particularly like to hear
your take on "the crap that's talked on the American ngs" (some of
which I may have inadvertently demonstrated above).
Heh. I haven't looked yet, but I bet janet is berating me somewhere on the
thread for generalising ;)

Not being
Post by Jani
argumentative, mind, just interested in your POV and rationale
(Really, I am interested in all POV's; it's what makes up this
world.)
OK. It was unfair of me to slam Americans specifically, but it *is* a
mindset I see much more often on alt* than I do here. Basically, it's the
sort of fair-weather, playgan attitude that sees nothing wrong with driving
a gas-guzzler to a campsite with more mod cons than a 4-star hotel, and
calling it "being pagan". Or keeping well away from any genuine wilderness
in case you get your expensive shoes muddy, or some insect has the temerity
to bite you. Or harping on about the "sacredness of the land" while voting
for a highway to be built right through someone else's ancient sacred
spaces. Or giving lip-service to the general "idea" of paganism, whilst
continuing to trample on and exploit natural resources in your everyday life
(putting a pent bumper sticker on your gas guzzler before you head for the
campsite, etc).

And the reason I think this comes across more from Americans than from Brits
is that in the first place, we're never very far from "the land", even if we
live in towns. It's such a small country that even though a lot of is
"manicured" (as an American friend of mine put it) rather than having vast
expanses of wilderness, you can get away from the urban sprawl comparatively
easily. Also, an awful lot of us have been here for generations, had
relatives in the not-so-distant past who worked directly on the land, and
even if the family's moved about a bit - well, again, it's a small country.
We know where we came from, give or take a few hundred miles, to the extent
that we don't even consciously think about it much. Being drawn to a pagan
path, which so many people describe as "coming home" is more like being
aware of something that's always existed, but you just forgot about it for a
few generations. Not so much *coming* home as becoming aware that you
actually *are* home.

Americans - by which I mean many of the Americans whose posts I've read on
alt*, not the entire population of the US - seem to see neopaganism as
something they add on as an extra layer. Not quite as superficial as
adopting a new fashion trend, but close. The number of wikkins who use
what's basically a christian structure of church services, bake sales, and
the like and simply change the labels, for instance. Or people who post
about rituals or spellwork which are actively damaging to the environment.
There's a lot of "look at me being very pagan and witchy and getting back to
the land" whilst in reality, there's still a *huge* barrier between them and
the land, either because they don't have the same "rootedness" or because
they want to retain the idea that they're actually superior to the land and
its resources, rather than actually being a part of it and its cycles.

And that aspect of it, I do see as being part of a general American
ideological perspective, in the sense that it's connected to the political
and economic idea of being dominant, being the leader of the free world, and
so on. It reminds me somewhat of the British self-perception, in the days of
the empire.

I think I managed all that without ranting :)

Jani
janet
2004-10-23 19:28:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jani
I don't think "wild places" are any more sacred than any other
places.
Nor do I because that would deny the possiblity that humans are,
themselves, sacred.
--
janet
texestentialist
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/index.php
Jani
2004-10-23 19:42:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by janet
Post by Jani
I don't think "wild places" are any more sacred than any other
places.
Nor do I because that would deny the possiblity that humans are,
themselves, sacred.
All of 'em? I'm leaning very strongly towards the 500 theory again, looking
at some of the fuckwittage that humans get up to :(

Jani
janet
2004-10-23 19:43:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jani
Post by janet
Post by Jani
I don't think "wild places" are any more sacred than any other
places.
Nor do I because that would deny the possiblity that humans are,
themselves, sacred.
All of 'em? I'm leaning very strongly towards the 500 theory
again,
Post by Jani
looking at some of the fuckwittage that humans get up to :(
Oh, I think all of them.

But we're good at denying it about ourselves AND each other - which
then denies it about ourselves in a remarkably viscious circle. :(
Post by Jani
Jani
--
janet
texestentialist
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/index.php
Jymn
2004-10-25 19:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by janet
Post by Jani
I don't think "wild places" are any more sacred than any other
places.
Nor do I because that would deny the possiblity that humans are,
themselves, sacred.
Does that imply that humans can't be wild?

Jymn
janet
2004-10-25 19:54:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jymn
Post by janet
Post by Jani
I don't think "wild places" are any more sacred than any other
places.
Nor do I because that would deny the possiblity that humans are,
themselves, sacred.
Does that imply that humans can't be wild?
Certainly not. Wildness - or at least the ability to be so - has to
be sacred, surely?

But then, considering my view of creation, there are few things that
are NOT sacred. :)
Post by Jymn
Jymn
--
janet
texestentialist
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/index.php
Daniel Cohen
2004-10-23 20:43:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jani
Hmm. If everywhere is sacred including as-mentioned-above, then presumably
one goes for "more sacred than others".
Not necessarily. I would go for "easier to be aware of the sacredness".
--
Send e-mail to the Reply-To address;
mail to the From address is never read
Jani
2004-10-23 21:25:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Cohen
Post by Jani
Hmm. If everywhere is sacred including as-mentioned-above, then presumably
one goes for "more sacred than others".
Not necessarily. I would go for "easier to be aware of the sacredness".
Oh, OK, that works :)

Jani
janet
2004-10-22 09:16:53 UTC
Permalink
Rhiannon S wrote:
[]> Are there any new circle and henges being made, and if so what
is the
symbolism behind them, or are they just copies because "the
ancients"
did it that way? Are there any new sacred groves being planted,
and
if so what makes them sacred? Does the act of people turning up
for
worship in a "safe area" count as a sacred place?
Certainly there was a move, advertised through the East Midlands PF
a while back, to create a new henge....
Finally, if you were building a scared place what would you put in
it, and where would you put it?
Do you mind?? That's part of the assessment for a course I'm
teaching! Any students of mine - don't answer!
:)
--
janet
texestentialist
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/index.php
Nuala
2004-10-23 08:31:34 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@mb-m15.aol.com>,
Rhiannon S <***@aol.comlemon> wrote:
[snip]
do pagans (however you define the term) make any new places of worship?
Yes. :)

[snip]
Are there any new circle and henges being made, and if so what is the
symbolism behind them, or are they just copies because "the ancients"
did it that way? Are there any new sacred groves being planted, and if
so what makes them sacred?
I'm afraid I have to be deliberately vague about that, but it isn't
difficult to consider which trees one might plant to symbolise which point
of the compass, how many trees one might plant, and extrapolate from there
as to the symbolism of the whole.
Does the act of people turning up for worship in a "safe area" count as
a sacred place?
What are you calling a 'safe area'?

A *sacred* space is somewhere dedicated to, appropriated by, or
connected with a religion, according to the OED, so depending on what
you mean by safe area, then I'd answer yes to that question. The
build-up of power, however, may (or may not, depending on how wisely
the site has been chosen) take a while.
I'm going back to the question of why aren't we making new places of
worship. Is it because there is no central figure in paganism, or
wicca, or druidism, etc? Does the word "etc" in the previous question
explain it, is paganism such a loose collective that it would be
impossible to agree on a sacred site much less find the resources to buy
land and develop it? Or is it something else?
Finally, if you were building a scared place what would you put in it,
and where would you put it?
I would choose an ancient power place, and ask the Genius Loci if it was
happy to allow celebration in this space. I would probably not add or take
anything from it.

Good thread. :)

~Love and blessings~
--
'Why should the son of fire fall down before a son of clay?' - Azazil
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...